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Alan Moore on superheroes, and other things

Started by Cain, February 28, 2009, 11:10:05 PM

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Faust

actually lost girls was just kinda voyeuristic and tacky, however I do feel he tried to make it somewhat original so i guess he gets marks for trying
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Fuquad

Quote from: zen_magick on March 05, 2009, 11:11:46 PM
Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 05, 2009, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2009, 10:29:48 PM
Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 05, 2009, 06:52:45 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2009, 06:39:41 PM
I don't know man, just because he started the trend doesn't mean he isn't allowed to complain about it becoming a cliche. Frankly if he has contributed to the medium I think that entitles him to critic it just as much if not more then someone who hasn't.
He can Critique it all he wants. The fact is that all he did was bring that Distopia into mainstream comics. It existed before he did it and it was only a matter of time before someone else did it. He didn't create a new genre he just gave it a new home and claimed that he created it.
Did he claim to have created it? He said he tried something new and hoped to see others trying new stuff and was left wanting from the superhero genre. The authority took a pretty unique stab at it though it was through homage/parody of characters. grant morrisons stuff is pretty unique as well. maybe its just a marvel thing.
"Watchmen" was put out by D.C.

The characters in "Watchmen" are based directly off of Charlton Characters that D.C. had acquired before "Watchmen" came out. And when I say based on I mean he wanted to use the Charlston characters and was initialy told he could and later told he couldn't.

And really if he didn't create it he wasn't trying anything new.



I have to say that Moore did create something new with the Watchmen.  Many people forget that it was written back in the '80's and he was presenting superheroes as 'real people' with real life problems.  Especially, the lesbian superhero who was outed and kicked out in the backstory. 

Moore has been ahead of the times throughout his career.  And Lost Girls was NOT SHIT it is erotica for an audience that is not homophobic or dogmatically straight.  It 'the Lost Girls' opens up new doors and I'm going to be interested to see what emerges.

OK sorry, for that all, I'll put the soap box away now
                                                                      z_m


I bought the first issue of "Watchmen" the day it hit the stands. I think I remember when it came out. And let me tell you he wasn't the only person telling stories about superheroes as real people with real life problems. I already said all he did was bring it to the mainstream.
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Faust

I wouldn't really truncate what made the watchmen new to "superheroes as real people", there is most definitely more to it then that.
Not saying it was an earth shattering tapestry woven from the pubic silk of the avant garde, but it had something that made it last on when nearly everything else from that time is all but forgotten.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Fuquad

#33
Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2009, 11:43:10 PM
I wouldn't really truncate what made the watchmen new to "superheroes as real people", there is most definitely more to it then that.
Not saying it was an earth shattering tapestry woven from the pubic silk of the avant garde, but it had something that made it last on when nearly everything else from that time is all but forgotten.
Of course it was more than that. It dealt with politics (as has many Comics since there inception), it dealt with social problems, it dealt with problems that a superhero may have in life. Much like "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" which finished it's run months before "Watchmen" started. Which was also dark And gritty. I know you said "nearly" but when one of the things that is remembered and can be argued to have the same effect on comics that "Watchmen" it's worth a mention.


Basically the only thing he added to mainstream comics was nudity, swearing, sex, and rape. Unless you consider "Heavy Metal"  to be mainstream.

  All of those things had been done in the underground for years. But as long as it helped lay the foundation for "Preacher" then I'm ok with it.
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Tempest Virago

Quote from: zen_magick on March 05, 2009, 11:11:46 PM
Moore has been ahead of the times throughout his career.  And Lost Girls was NOT SHIT it is erotica for an audience that is not homophobic or dogmatically straight.  It 'the Lost Girls' opens up new doors and I'm going to be interested to see what emerges.

OK sorry, for that all, I'll put the soap box away now
                                                                      z_m

I am neither homophobic nor "dogmatically straight", and it's patently ridiculous for you to accuse me of that based simply on the fact that I don't like a comic book you like. I don't have a problem with the lesbian aspect of Lost Girls. I can break out my dykey credentials if I have to.

Yeah, I find some of it offensive, but it's not the lesbian sex, it's the rampant pedophilia. I guess it makes me "homophobic" to think making a character who fucks little boys and girls who are possibly his children sympathetic. Every character in the book seems to think fucking little kids is A-Okay. Go ahead, call me a prude if you will, but I don't like reading about pedos. Not to malign his character, but  I really don't know why Alan Moore needs rape, pedophilia and elderly skeezes fucking young girls in all of his works.

But that's not really why I dislike it. I dislike it mainly because I really do think he's trying way too hard to do the whole "erotica for intellectuals" thing and it comes off as pretentious and trying too hard. Plus it's just plain not as interesting as it thinks it is.

Faust

Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 06, 2009, 12:14:25 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2009, 11:43:10 PM
I wouldn't really truncate what made the watchmen new to "superheroes as real people", there is most definitely more to it then that.
Not saying it was an earth shattering tapestry woven from the pubic silk of the avant garde, but it had something that made it last on when nearly everything else from that time is all but forgotten.
Of course it was more than that. It dealt with politics (as has many Comics since there inception), it dealt with social problems, it dealt with problems that a superhero may have in life. Much like "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" which finished it's run months before "Watchmen" started. Which was also dark And gritty. I know you said "nearly" but when one of the things that is remembered and can be argued to have the same effect on comics that "Watchmen" it's worth a mention.


Basically the only thing he added to mainstream comics was nudity, swearing, sex, and rape. Unless you consider "Heavy Metal"  to be mainstream.

  All of those things had been done in the underground for years. But as long as it helped lay the foundation for "Preacher" then I'm ok with it.
Don't forget out of sequence events(with the doc manhatten bit). its something you don't see too often but then I wouldn't call it earth shattering.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

Quote from: Tempest Virago on March 06, 2009, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: zen_magick on March 05, 2009, 11:11:46 PM
Moore has been ahead of the times throughout his career.  And Lost Girls was NOT SHIT it is erotica for an audience that is not homophobic or dogmatically straight.  It 'the Lost Girls' opens up new doors and I'm going to be interested to see what emerges.

OK sorry, for that all, I'll put the soap box away now
                                                                      z_m

I am neither homophobic nor "dogmatically straight", and it's patently ridiculous for you to accuse me of that based simply on the fact that I don't like a comic book you like. I don't have a problem with the lesbian aspect of Lost Girls. I can break out my dykey credentials if I have to.

Yeah, I find some of it offensive, but it's not the lesbian sex, it's the rampant pedophilia. I guess it makes me "homophobic" to think making a character who fucks little boys and girls who are possibly his children sympathetic. Every character in the book seems to think fucking little kids is A-Okay. Go ahead, call me a prude if you will, but I don't like reading about pedos. Not to malign his character, but  I really don't know why Alan Moore needs rape, pedophilia and elderly skeezes fucking young girls in all of his works.

But that's not really why I dislike it. I dislike it mainly because I really do think he's trying way too hard to do the whole "erotica for intellectuals" thing and it comes off as pretentious and trying too hard. Plus it's just plain not as interesting as it thinks it is.
It was partly supposed to be exploring the awkwardness of youths transition to adulthood and the awakening of sexuality blah blah blah.
I consider it a failed project and yes it does reek pedo.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Tempest Virago

Quote from: Faust on March 06, 2009, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: Tempest Virago on March 06, 2009, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: zen_magick on March 05, 2009, 11:11:46 PM
Moore has been ahead of the times throughout his career.  And Lost Girls was NOT SHIT it is erotica for an audience that is not homophobic or dogmatically straight.  It 'the Lost Girls' opens up new doors and I'm going to be interested to see what emerges.

OK sorry, for that all, I'll put the soap box away now
                                                                      z_m

I am neither homophobic nor "dogmatically straight", and it's patently ridiculous for you to accuse me of that based simply on the fact that I don't like a comic book you like. I don't have a problem with the lesbian aspect of Lost Girls. I can break out my dykey credentials if I have to.

Yeah, I find some of it offensive, but it's not the lesbian sex, it's the rampant pedophilia. I guess it makes me "homophobic" to think making a character who fucks little boys and girls who are possibly his children sympathetic. Every character in the book seems to think fucking little kids is A-Okay. Go ahead, call me a prude if you will, but I don't like reading about pedos. Not to malign his character, but  I really don't know why Alan Moore needs rape, pedophilia and elderly skeezes fucking young girls in all of his works.

But that's not really why I dislike it. I dislike it mainly because I really do think he's trying way too hard to do the whole "erotica for intellectuals" thing and it comes off as pretentious and trying too hard. Plus it's just plain not as interesting as it thinks it is.
It was partly supposed to be exploring the awkwardness of youths transition to adulthood and the awakening of sexuality blah blah blah.
I consider it a failed project and yes it does reek pedo.

Yeah, I'm sure he had lofty intentions, I just think they fell short of the mark.

Fuquad

Quote from: Faust on March 06, 2009, 12:25:09 AM
Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 06, 2009, 12:14:25 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2009, 11:43:10 PM
I wouldn't really truncate what made the watchmen new to "superheroes as real people", there is most definitely more to it then that.
Not saying it was an earth shattering tapestry woven from the pubic silk of the avant garde, but it had something that made it last on when nearly everything else from that time is all but forgotten.
Of course it was more than that. It dealt with politics (as has many Comics since there inception), it dealt with social problems, it dealt with problems that a superhero may have in life. Much like "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" which finished it's run months before "Watchmen" started. Which was also dark And gritty. I know you said "nearly" but when one of the things that is remembered and can be argued to have the same effect on comics that "Watchmen" it's worth a mention.


Basically the only thing he added to mainstream comics was nudity, swearing, sex, and rape. Unless you consider "Heavy Metal"  to be mainstream.

  All of those things had been done in the underground for years. But as long as it helped lay the foundation for "Preacher" then I'm ok with it.
Don't forget out of sequence events(with the doc manhatten bit). its something you don't see too often but then I wouldn't call it earth shattering.
True.  I did forget about it.

It is the only time I have seen Flashback and Foreshadowing used in context with a characters powers but I can't really say it's had much impact in comics. In as much a characters powers being used as the narrative of the story. 
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Requia ☣

Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 06, 2009, 12:14:25 AM

Basically the only thing he added to mainstream comics was nudity, swearing, sex, and rape. Unless you consider "Heavy Metal"  to be mainstream.


You forgot drugs, rotting zombies, and anything else the comics code forbade.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Fuquad

Quote from: Requia on March 06, 2009, 01:57:04 AM
Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on March 06, 2009, 12:14:25 AM

Basically the only thing he added to mainstream comics was nudity, swearing, sex, and rape. Unless you consider "Heavy Metal"  to be mainstream.


You forgot drugs, rotting zombies, and anything else the comics code forbade.
Drug use was depicted in The Amazing Spider-Man; issues #96–98 which ran in 1971. Yes without the comics code logo on it. Just as "watchmen was ran without the comics code logo on it.

Marvel Comics ran Tales of the Zombie (1973-1975) in a magazine format so as to get around having to put a Comics code logo on it.



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Requia ☣

Drugs were used after the spider man run as well, the comics code got ammended.  But drug use *had* to be betrayed as bad, anti drug messages only.

Moore got them to toss out the comics code altogether.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Triple Zero

Quote from: ratatoskHAKIM BEY!!!! YouTUBE IS YOUR FAULT!!!

:lulz:

Quote from: Tempest Virago on March 06, 2009, 12:23:15 AMI dislike it mainly because I really do think he's trying way too hard to do the whole "erotica for intellectuals" thing and it comes off as pretentious and trying too hard. Plus it's just plain not as interesting as it thinks it is.

throw in some drugs and replace superheroes with artists/actors/writers/dandies and Dutch literature was decades ahead of that.

- triple zero
whose highschool finals Dutch literature reading list consisted of nothing but sex, drugs and coke-snorting artistes having sex. in a large variety of manners. a large, really imaginative, variety of manners. goddamnit i should possibly re-read those books and see if they are as smutty as I remember them.
and of course Max Havelaar on the list, no sex, Dutch literature classic, to appease the teacher and all was good.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

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LMNO

Um, guys?

Zap, Weirdo, Leather Nun, Fabulous Furry Freak Bros... Milo Fucking Manara, for fuck's sake.


The only "groundbreaking" thinG in watchemen is that a major publisher had the balls to mass-market it.

Fuquad

Quote from: LMNO redux on March 06, 2009, 07:07:27 PM
Um, guys?

Zap, Weirdo, Leather Nun, Fabulous Furry Freak Bros... Milo Fucking Manara, for fuck's sake.


The only "groundbreaking" thinG in watchemen is that a major publisher had the balls to mass-market it.
Pretty much.
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