Want to have a crack at this? (Answer outsourcing thread)

[LMNO]

You know?  I suppose it bothers me that people are going around with false information.

Because it's not an act of faith.  It's not believing what can't be proven.  It's willful ignorance.

Because people who think misinformation is True will act on the basis of that misinformation.  Which leads them, for example, to the point where if something bad happens to a person, then according to LoA, it's that person's fault; whereas with Lo5, this conclusion isn't reached.

It's the motherfucking barstool all over again.

[Cain]

The conclusion is what really bothers me about the whole Law of Attraction.  Its basically an excuse to sneer at people suffering through no fault of their own, and plays directly into Horatio Alger-esque bullshit fantasies.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

You know?  I suppose it bothers me that people are going around with false information.

Because it's not an act of faith.  It's not believing what can't be proven.  It's willful ignorance.

I disagree... I think its faith/belief. Saying that Wiccans came from the ANCIENT traditions and that the Christians stole the Bread/Wine from the ancient Wiccans... that is Willful Ignorance. To say that 1,000,000,000,000,000 witches were killed in TEH BURNIN TIMEZ! That is willful ignorance.

To believe in the Law of Attraction, is a belief no more or less stupid than believing or not believing in Free Will. Granted, I would prefer that people THINK about THINKING and come to the realization that LoA is Lo5's as seen through the glass darkly. However, for some people the dark glasses are an SEP field that gets them through the day.

Because people who think misinformation is True will act on the basis of that misinformation.  Which leads them, for example, to the point where if something bad happens to a person, then according to LoA, it's that person's fault; whereas with Lo5, this conclusion isn't reached.

That is a Big Truth and the opposite of it is also a Big Truth:

People who think LoA is True will act on the basis of that misinformation.  Which leads them, for example, to successfully seize the moment and succeed in their goals. LoA says that this is their fault... AND IT IS RIGHT.

The more I reflect on my opinions about Discordianism, the more I think it has been influenced by my time as a JW.

When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I was taught many TRUE things about the Bible. For example, the concept of the Trinity is not supported by the Bible and, in fact, came from non christian belief systems. Hell, is neither in the Bible, in BC Judaism OR in early Christian beliefs, it too came from other sources. I hated to see people consumed by believing misinformation. I would spend 70 Hours a month trying to help people see that they believed lies. Then, I came to the realization that much of the TRUTH I knew, was also misinformation and lies. I had spent 23 years of my life trying to HELP other people with their misinformation, all the while consuming lies with ketchup and salt. I remember one day, as I was studying the bible and the scripture where Jesus says "First remove the rafter from your own eye, before you remove the straw from your brothers eye".

I do not yet think I KNOW the Truth... so why the fuck should I go tell someone else that their truth is false?

One time, in the ministry, I was speaking on the non-existence of Hell. How the concept came into Christian beliefs well after the first century, how the "supportive" scriptures are full of metaphor, indicating that the 'hell' is a metaphor as well... the person at the door listened and then said "My Father beat my mother, beat all of us kids and left us when we were just children. I was 13 and had to quit school and get a job. If I could not believe that he is burning in Hell, I would have no desire to believe in God, heaven or anything else."

I think a lot of people might be like that person... they believe whatever helps them sleep at night. Who am I, with my silly Chaos Goddess and crazy Law of Fives to hit them with a barstool?

I mean, if they started it and were being assholes, I'd hit them... but if they're just getting by, let them drink themselves into a stupor so they can, at least, get some rest.

At least, that's what I think this minute....

The conclusion is what really bothers me about the whole Law of Attraction.  Its basically an excuse to sneer at people suffering through no fault of their own, and plays directly into Horatio Alger-esque bullshit fantasies.

People will always find an excuse to sneer at people who suffer. It existed far before the Law of Attraction and will exist far after the last Neo-Quantum-Pagan has died.

As for the Law of Attraction, I currently subscribe to the Dr. Steel model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ConLzMk-jg

All you think you are,
Everything you want to be
Is only happening in your reality

We Decide It

[Thurnez Isa]

I find it really selfish... even if you take out the whole people bitching for more money and/or mates (which describes the law of attraction forums)... even if you take out the whole interpreting quantum physics to suit your own believes... even if you take out the whole blaming the victim... the whole thing seems like an excuse to reestablish yourself as the center of the universe... a sort of reverting back to childhood

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I find it really selfish... even if you take out the whole people bitching for more money and/or mates (which describes the law of attraction forums)... even if you take out the whole interpreting quantum physics to suit your own believes... even if you take out the whole blaming the victim... the whole thing seems like an excuse to reestablish yourself as the center of the universe... a sort of reverting back to childhood

But in some sense, you are the center of your Universe. Sure, its the universe you perceive rather than the Universe that IS... but we only ever experience the former... the latter might be quarks, strings, branes or very small cats that are both dead and alive at the same time.

[Thurnez Isa]

listen the ONLY reason why law of attraction works sometimes is cause it makes people define their goals - something most people don't do - which makes it more likely they will do something to gain whatever they want - well that and everyone knows if you have negative attitude things usually don't work for you
thats it
and if you actually observe the universe, and use your rational you release very quickly that you are NOT the center of the universe.. your perception idea doesn't hold out because can just as easily mean that your not critically observing what is around you

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

listen the ONLY reason why law of attraction works is cause it makes people define their goals - something most people don't do - which makes it more likely they will do something to gain whatever they want
thats it
and if you actually observe the universe, and use your rational you release very quickly that you are NOT the center of the universe.. your perception idea doesn't hold out because can just as easily mean that your not critically observing what is around you

I would argue that it helps them set goals AND it helps them modifies their perceptions to find ways to accomplish those goals AND it gives them the impetus to SEIZE the moment to achieve those goals.

I was deep in 'observer created reality' at one point a few years back. I was reading Wilson, Alli, Sirius, Farber, Hine, Carroll, etc etc etc and I decided that since all of those people were alive, I WOULD interact with them. I did rituals and focused on the idea that I would be chatting with Bob Wilson or Peter Carroll. 6 months later I was the Tech Guy at Maybe Logic, chatting online and on the phone with ALL of them. Granted, since meeting them personally I've lost respect for a few of them... but thats another issue

I don't think that LoA made it come true because the Universe changed... I do think that the focus, the ritual, the belief helped me to take advantage of situations that put me in a position where I could achieve the goal. So, I think we do live in an observer created reality in some sense... not in the sense that I created the Barstool with my mind powerz, but I did get to fly to CA and hang out with Wilson before he died, because I created the reality where that could happen (in some sense).

[Thurnez Isa]

I think we are going to have agree to disagree cause I would have to start doing drugs again just to understand what you were getting at...
you do have the same belief system as my ex, and I didn't think it made sense then either

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think we are going to have agree to disagree cause I would have to start doing drugs again just to understand what you were getting at...
you do have the same belief system as my ex, and I didn't think it made sense then either

What belief system?

Let me try to restate:

Rat wants to have X happen in his reality (where X is finding 5's, 23's, quarters, or hanging out with counterculture heroes)
Rat then focuses on X regularly, embedding the desire for X into his subconscious
Rat's subconscious starts filtering for X.
When Rat's subconscious sees something that may get Rat closer to X, it throws up a big red flag and say "HEY SCHMUCK! LOOK AT THIS".
Then Rat says "OICWUTUDIDTHAR"
Eventually Rat lives in a Universe where X is true, because he made it true.

It doesn't work for everything, because LoA is not really true. It's just useful for some people.

Real Reality may drop a load of Lemons on the Observer... but the Observer creates the reality where lemons=lemonade or lemons= terrible lunch.

Even in a horrific situation, let us say, Rape. Real Reality is where some innocent person is raped. The Observer Created Reality is where that person lives afterward. The rape was not their fault, that the rape completely destroyed their life, that they got hooked on Heroin to avoid thinking about it and that they comitted suicide in the end... happens in their observer created reality.

I like RAW's comment that Reality is "Interactive Processes" or a "Causal feedback Loop"... Shit Happens and we interact with the Shit, our interaction can make it less shitty or more shitty.

The Shit is not our fault. Rolling around in it is.

[Thurnez Isa]

Now having said that I really hope to hear peoples opinions on the law of attraction...
mainly cause I find it interesting.

The way I see it this taking petty superstitions as spiritual reality, this blend of materialism, commercialism and marketable talking points, this idea that ones opinions is more important then what we can prove through prediction and observations, this almost mocking of people being good without reward, as practically the same thing as what we see in the sort of extreme religiousness in a fragment of Western Society. The Secret kind of presents it in a warm fuzzy way, but it kind of the same thing. Sort of answers are good, questions are bad.... simplicity over doubt...

I don't know why I find it interesting... still haven't got back to on any science studies done on the subject... and I don't wanna email my sister for some (she'll laugh at me for even asking the question)

[Thurnez Isa]

I like RAW's comment that Reality is "Interactive Processes" or a "Causal feedback Loop"... Shit Happens and we interact with the Shit, our interaction can make it less shitty or more shitty.

The Shit is not our fault. Rolling around in it is.

I think i kind of what your getting at...
My concern with that line of thinking is that it might lead some to reconstruct what is actually there to fit what they think is there. A sort of losing touch with what is real - an extreme case of this (and Im only using this cause it is an extreme case and easy to understand) are the fundies who are absolutely convinced that science supports their interpretation of the bible...
I guess that is my main concern. That when life actually happens some might lose prospective in interpreting through what they experienced before hand then using deduction and research.


ACCKK
This is why I hate philosophic discussions. I suck at it so much

[LMNO]

But the thing is Rat, you're not using LoA, you're using Lo5... Because you know it's an internal process, and not an external (i.e. you change to see the universe differently, not the universe changes to your whim).

And your JW example doesn't apply, because you were debating Game Rules over what it is to "be a Christian", not whether the bible explained how the universe worked. 

Saying "hell doesn't exist because it's not in the bible" is much different than saying "the earth is 6000 years old because it's in the bible."

One is a game rule in the religion, the other is making a statement about the universe.

Saying the LoA works is one thing.  Saying it works because of Quantum is another.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I like RAW's comment that Reality is "Interactive Processes" or a "Causal feedback Loop"... Shit Happens and we interact with the Shit, our interaction can make it less shitty or more shitty.

The Shit is not our fault. Rolling around in it is.

I think i kind of what your getting at...
My concern with that line of thinking is that it might lead some to reconstruct what is actually there to fit what they think is there. A sort of losing touch with what is real - an extreme case of this (and Im only using this cause it is an extreme case and easy to understand) are the fundies who are absolutely convinced that science supports their interpretation of the bible...
I guess that is my main concern. That when life actually happens some might lose prospective in interpreting through what they experienced before hand then using deduction and research.


ACCKK
This is why I hate philosophic discussions. I suck at it so much

I thought you made good points...

You're right of course, any model if confused with reality is a terrible idea. It's bad if you think 100% User Created Reality is Really Real or that 100% everything is related to 5, or 100% that everything in Reality must be observable and measurable (as opposed to "everything we humans can grok in reality must be observable and measurable).  That's why I like being model agnostic. Rather than say Model is True, I can just say "How is Model Useful?" Yes, it sucks for those sods that really believe it, but if it was this it would be Scientology or UFO's or the Illuminati or Jesus or Muhammad or some other nonsense that they decide to really real for realz believe.

As I said before, I was concerned by people believing lies and how those lies affected their view of the World... all the while believing lies and letting them affect my world. Maybe we all believe whatever it is that gets us through the day and when something stops getting us through the day, we go find something else to believe.

Colbert had a conservative on last night and was doing a bit about WHAT IF *insert terrible thing here* happened in the next few years. He ended with the worst scenario of all, what if Obama's stimulus works, what if his plan makes things improve by 2012... and the guy responded "I'd have to rethink everything I believe in".

That was how I felt in 2000 when I lost my faith in Jehovah. I had to rethink everything. Since then, I've always thought I was lucky that I found the PD and Discordianism and Bob before I got stuck with some other stupid belief system.

Sometimes though, I have to wonder if this is nothing more than yet another stupid belief system. Maybe that's all there is, hairless  monkeys with random chemical reactions bouncing about in their cranium, grabbing onto one silly belief system after another... with none of them being anything more than wankery.


Then I go get stoned and do something useful  

But the thing is Rat, you're not using LoA, you're using Lo5... Because you know it's an internal process, and not an external (i.e. you change to see the universe differently, not the universe changes to your whim).

At this point in my life, I do think that its an internal process. However, at the point in my life when it happened... I still didn't understand that very well at all. I was still trying to figure it out. Hell, I'd say my experiences at MLA with RAW and the rest of the gang contributed significantly to my greater understanding of the 'observer created reality'.

And your JW example doesn't apply, because you were debating Game Rules over what it is to "be a Christian", not whether the bible explained how the universe worked. 

Saying "hell doesn't exist because it's not in the bible" is much different than saying "the earth is 6000 years old because it's in the bible."

One is a game rule in the religion, the other is making a statement about the universe.

I don't disagree with that... My point wasn't that they were equal statements... Only that I was sure of True and False and felt it was necessary to tell people that their were beliefs were FALSE, while completely ignoring the fact that MY beliefs were false as well.

Saying the LoA works is one thing.  Saying it works because of Quantum is another.

I agree almost completely, but I would make one adjustment:

Saying the LoA works is one thing,  saying it works because of Quantum is another, actually BELIEVING that LoA is due to Quantum Multiverses is a whole different and scary thing.

It's like Crowley. Syaing that you're climbing the tree of life is one thing, saying that you are in Malkuth is another; but really believing that you're gonna get teh MAJICKS POWERZ when you reach Kether is a whole different and scary thing.

[Thurnez Isa]

The conclusion is what really bothers me about the whole Law of Attraction.  Its basically an excuse to sneer at people suffering through no fault of their own, and plays directly into Horatio Alger-esque bullshit fantasies.

I just wanna say
if you or someone you know ever gets cancer from no fault of their own and some "new ager" hints it was because of negative thoughts...
kick that person in the groin

it will be worth any negative karma coming your way

[LMNO]

Saying the LoA works is one thing,  saying it works because of Quantum is another, actually BELIEVING that LoA is due to Quantum Multiverses is a whole different and scary thing.

And so we come back around.  If you believe in LoA, you're "actually BELIEVING that LoA is due to Quantum Multiverses."

If you're using the LoA techniques, but don't think you're tangibly affecting the universe around you, then you're using Lo5.