You're poor and dying because God hates you

[LMNO]

Please tell me it was spontaneous combustion, or he got eated by an invisible monster in the middle of the town square.

[Jenne]

I think he died in his sleep, the lucky fuck.  I disremember the nitty gritty, but I remember thinking that for all he put Bella through, it was too easy a death by half.

[Richter]

LaVey figured out and put down in short order what it took a LOT of shrinks years to agree on.  I'd give more credence to his writings and less to his church, though.  You learn a lot as a Carnie.

If you're curious, head on over to EB&G and ask Bella about Satanists. 

She's had first-hand experience with that particular form of douchebaggery-- her father is one.

I only have interest in browsing LaVey for points that line up with the psych I know.  I don't have the patience for his pet project.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

They use the model that is most likely to work for the spags that want their help. Here in the US, generally speaking, people tend towards Christian beliefs. Therefore, if you're going to modify their mental programming, using YHVH along with his associated props, symbols and words is probably the most surefire way to connect with most people. The psychological handles are already there, ya just gotta pull them in the right way.

Personally, I think the whole concept of AA is a bad idea, but I can see why they might use the model they use.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Satanists are invariably boring, self-glorifying douchebags or Christians who've gone psychotic.  Either one seems a losing proposition.

This.

[Lyris_Nymphetamine]

AA are infamous for their use of god. 12 step programs rely on the belief of a higher power giving you strength to quit. it's bullshit but its how they run.
on a side note, the majority of people who enter 12 step programs never actually recover.

[fomenter]

the majority of people who enter 12 step programs never actually recover.

i have always wondered if that wasn't because of these steps

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. (what i hear - you have no power over your life, you are fucked no matter what)
2. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. ( what i hear - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of something that may not exist)
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. ( what i hear - invisible man in sky who may not exist will do the work for you)
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings  ( what i hear - invisible man in sky who may not exist will do the work for you if you ask nicely)

maybe i am being too harsh since they are trying to help.. or maybe its as fucked up as it sounds to me??
the rest of the steps sound a bit better.

[Cain]

It is fucked up.  Its also essentially a cult:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm

For decades, millions of people have suspected, believed, or known that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious. Anyone can see that it is, yet an entire nation accepted its sophomoric disclaimer, "Not religious, just spiritual." Recently, however, federal courts have asserted, "AA is unequivocally religious." They only looked at AA's doctrinal literature, and unhesitatingly declared what is obvious to anyone.

To AA believers, AA doctrine must be correct, as it is written. No one may speak of the incoherence of AA doctrine, and group interaction is designed to prevent or contain skepticism. "Your best thinking got you here." "There's no one too dumb to get this program, but many are too intelligent." "Expect a miracle."

AA lore is replete with injunctions to devote one's life in every way to the cult itself. One may not take credit for abstinence or relief from despair; the only benefactor is AA or God, and the only proper attitude is gratitude. [The AA book] Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions sets forth Tradition One as, "Our common welfare should come first." AA presents itself as necessary to life itself: "...without AA we will perish." Any criticism of the Program or of AA is regarded as heresy that endangers the lives of AA'ers everywhere, and must be silenced by admonitions or mottos. Members dwell upon themselves endlessly, working steps on themselves, and attending [meetings] as part of methodical spiritual growth. Step meetings focus on philosophical minutia, and an endless stream of new books on step-recovery, many [published by] Hazelden, are found in bookstores for the struggling recovering alcoholics.

The tens of thousands of people who have called us in despair have been mistreated by members of AA — by fellow groupers, by sponsors, by step-oriented counselors and therapists, and by stepping judges and physicians. The abuses are surprisingly similar and few in type, the most common being the insistence that AA is the only possible remedy for addiction, leaving the subject depressed and hopeless. The use of death threats is universal within the recovery group movement, drawing on the tone and passages from "The Big Book" which predict death for nonbelievers and dropouts.

[Richter]

I've known a few AA participants.  When they're on board with it, they all seem infatuated with telling everyone they know how if you drink, you're an alcoholic.  They have some suspiciously circular logic to back this up too.

[fomenter]

"cult like" is a good description of AA followers and the AA program.
i never understood the first step if i am down and struggling with any problem, the last thing i would want to do is assume a mindset that i am powerless 
the turning your life over to "god",sponsors or meetings is the same first step in any cult...

[LMNO]

The way I understand it, the HARDCORE alcoholic (of which there are, IMO, actually fairly few of, relatively speaking) is functionally insane.  Their brains simply do not function in the same way as most brains after decades of severe alcohol abuse.

It seems to me that one of the most effecient and long-term ways to combat this is to completely reprogram the brain.  Yes, I mean brainwashing.  Strip the subject's consciousness down to its very core, and build it up again with strict Overlord-ian rules and habits.  Many of the methods described in AA are similar to other popular brainwashing techniques:

Confess your sins (regularly, and repeatedly), which breaks down your ego.
Abandon your past life and relationships completely and absolutely, which puts you in emotionally vulnerable territory.
Have the cult's adherents express love and admiration at you, which builds up the new identity of "self".
Proscribe strict and unflinching rules of behavior.
Employs chants and slogans that mentally enforce the behavior.

And you know what?  For a HARDCORE alcoholic, this is far preferrable to a life on the bottle.

But, as I noted above, the kind of people who are so far gone that AA is better than death are relatively small.  Instead, you have people for whom booze is more like a really, really bad habit.  They don't need indoctrination, they need techniques for building willpower, which IMO is opposite of cult indoctrination.

However, AA couldn't survive on only treating the hardcore boozehound.  There aren't enough of them.  So, they perpetuate the idea that the latter drunks are the same as the former.

[Cain]

And profit from them. Not financially, but in terms of a self-propagating organization, which is necessary when your rentention rates are so low.

Kind of like how authoritarian religions have so many people leaving, they place empahsis on conversion to make up for it.

[LMNO]

Yeah, I guess I left that part unsaid.

Props for the follow-up.

[AFK]

IMO, a person seeing a licensed professional is going to work much better.  And often times those professionals can get you into a group where you can get support from other alcoholics without the BS of AA.  However, in some regions of the country, AA may be all that is available in terms of proximity and financially.  If we were able to make treatment more available and more affordable, AA would dry up, pardon the pun. 

[Cain]

Yeah, the article I linked mentioned they often have to rely on forcing people to go there to keep their numbers up.  I know if I was suffering from alcohol addiction, and I had a choice between a licenced professional with occasional group therapy, or the AA, I'd take the former every single time.