The Sacred Chao Te Ching

[Cramulus]

But some of these terms aren't self explanatory. how can someone (who doesn't hang out at PD) think about the word "pinealist" and come to the conclusion we intended?

We're probably in agreement that there's a fine line we have to walk between spoonfeeding the reader information and leaving it frustratingly vague.

That being said, we certainly don't want longwinded discussions in this intentionally minimalistic book. I'd say that if a concept is too complex to explain in one chapter, it probably didn't belong in the TTC anyway, no? I mean, I'm positive that there's a way to explain "eating the menu" (for example) without being tied to that exact metaphor.


I agree fully with what burns said here:

i think the personal PD.com touch would be nice provided that the ideas can stand on their own.

[LMNO]

Ok, here's ch7:

Original:

Heaven is eternal, and the earth is very old.
They can be eternal and long lasting,
because they do not exist for themselves,
and for this reason can long endure.

Therefore the wise put themselves last,
but find themselves foremost.
They are indifferent to themselves,
and yet they always remain.
Is it not because they do not live for themselves
that they find themselves fulfilled?

Our Translation:

The Universe outside your Prison Cell has gone on before you, and goes on after you.
It is as unfeeling and uncaring about itself as a barstool in midflight,
Approaching your head; your thoughts inside it affect nothing.

So the wise Spags look outside their own brains,
And grasp the surrounding minds.
They see the Bars of their Black Iron Prison,
And so are able to see around them.
Because isn't the other way
Tatamount to masturbation?



It shows the Barstool as the Reality of the Situation that's gonna happen, whether you believe it isn't there or not.  It also shows that to live inside your own head and forget about existential reality is the same as wanking off; in this way, the Barstool is defined.  

[LMNO]

The way I see it, if we make it to 81 chapters, we're going to be able to cross-reference our terms.

The first time someone sees "Barstool", they might be confused.

The next 5 times they see it, however, it will gradually become defined.  Then they'll have to go back and re-read the earlier chapters.  That's what I did with the TTC.

I strongly feel that if someone understands what we're getting at too quickly, we're not doing it right.

[Bu🤠ns]

Im going to list a few things i think are key to remember:

1. Symbols, and metaphors can stand on their own through either being obvious or by the context in which it's used.
---i think the prison metaphor is pretty straightforward. 
2. Specific references should support that same specific reference elsewhere.
3. Since it is Discordian, i think this project should assume, at the very least, that the reader has read the PD which allows any and all symbols outlined in the book fair game.

Thats all i can think of, atm, i'm at work too so i'm not able to give this my FULL attention (even though thats what i've been doing for the last hour).

[LMNO]

Further defence: CH12

What is Seen distracts from what Is Not;
What is Heard diverts from what Can Not;
What is Believed subverts what Should Not.
The Cell walls we have built
Comfort us into ignorance.

But the wise spag does not eat the menu,
And seeks to re-write the map.




In this case, the "eat the menu" reference should be pretty obvious, or at least lead the thinking person to the same conclusion: What we immediately see and hear builds false impressions that we believe in.  The wise spag doesn't go to a restaraunt and eat the menu; which is to say he doesn't believe only what he perceives at a base level.

[Cramulus]

I'm with you guys. :

like I said a few pages ago - we're going to have to experiment until we get it right. I certainly don't have the master blueprint! 

It sounds like we're in agreement that the goal is not to produce wankmaterial that will only be appreciated by the Peedy Dotcom cabal.

Due to the nature of this project, I don't think we'll be able to define exactly how we're going to reach our nebulous goal. At some point, it'll just feel right.


Good discussion so far! I'm really enjoying this. I just wish I could focus on it, but work etc etc etc.

[LMNO]

Amusingly enough, this reminds me of ch15:

The wise spag understands Chaos,
In that it cannot be understood.
Because of that, they must use metapors,
Which are piss-poor ways of communicating.
Surfing the waves of Chaos;
Attempting a Jailbreak;
Preparing for aftermath;
Changing their filters;
Making their own luck.

Who can make sense of two contradicting Illusions?
Seeing through the spin, a direction becomes clear.
Adapting to the situation, the goals are realized.
Amending the theory, understanding grows.
In this way, the wise spag is not troubled.

[Bu🤠ns]

also i'd like to point out a few themes from the TTC that maybe we can use corresponding discordian terms for them:
So what is a Discordain way of expressing ideas such as:

-Non-action/Non-interfearance (Wu-wei)
-Spontaneity
-Non-duality
-Fluidity
-Emptiness
-Humility
-Self-knowledge
-acceptance
-confusing the symbol for the value.
-simplicity

there are a shitload of others, but i thought It might be a start for establishing just a teeny bit of consistency.

[Bu🤠ns]

Original 13:
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.

When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

SPAG 13:
Having and not having
Both create frustration.
When you have, you're afraid to lose
When you have not, you're afraid you won't have.
Kill the cycle by expanding your definition of Self
To encompass the Universe.
Then, your soul is not inside you, and you are inside your soul.
You can have it all with nothing to lose.

----
The tough thing about chapter 13 is i can't find any discordian correspondences.

[LMNO]

Sure there are; in a larger sense, the chapter is about opposites and extremes.

there are plenty of opposites in the PD; order/disorder/creation/destruction/love/war/eris/greyface/illusion/reality...

Just pick a couple, and describe how each compliments the other, or how too much of one leads you astray.

[Cain]

I'll drag my copy of the Tao Teh Ching out tonight then.  However, since I intend to finish Twilight as well, don't be surprised if it ends up reading as:

The vampire that can withstand sunlight is not a vampire
The Mary Sue who is made of nothing but flaws is but still a Mary Sue
The dream that from which good literature is made is just a dream
The series is but a mother that rears ten thousand slashfics of its kind.

[LMNO]

 

[LMNO]

Ok, 17's down.

19's the last one on this page needs doing.

[LMNO]

On second thought, does this even need tweaking?


Abandon religion and discard cleverness,
and people will benefit a hundredfold.
Abandon humanity and discard morality,
and people will rediscover love and duty.
Abandon skill and discard profit,
and there will be no thieves or robbers.
These three things relate to externals and are inadequate.

People need what they can depend on:
reveal simplicity; embrace the natural;
control selfishness; reduce desires.

[Cramulus]

no that's pretty good as it is. A lot of these chapters don't need too much tinkering - the early Discordians were way hip to these ideas, and that's reflected in the Principia.

but things to consider: the translation we're working from is (c), so the bare minimum we need is a retelling


Chapters 21-30 posted:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30