Can it be World Police Time now?

[LMNO]

Maybe I'm not thinking this through enough, but does anyone else notice that the common element in all these arguments is Force?

Doesn't it seem like the common problem here is that you can't force people to change, you need to convince them, instead?

Yeah, sure, you can force them to comply to your demands, but it seems the goal is to get another country to willingly do what we ask.

To me, the issue becomes what other methods/techniques/strategies can we use other than Daisy Cutters and Bunker Busters?

[AFK]

If force works at all it is in the Short Term.  The only way it would work in the Long Term is if you killed everyone.  That's why, as corny as it sounds, the "Heart and Minds" argument does have some merit to it.  In the long term it would work better if we could find some way to get people to not hate us anymore.  Or, at least, not hate us to the point where they are willing to end their lives to get us.  Not that I have any clue of how you do that.  Just sitting down and having a chat alone is obviously not going to do it.  But that, with some tailored policies may at least be able to get some chinks in the armors. 

I think there are things we can do on our end too.  We can get more Americans to stop thinking that all smudgy people who live "over there" aren't thinking about killing us 24/7.  Perhaps if we aren't projecting so much prejudice that would at least begin to put things in the right direction, or contribute to it, or something. 

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

... get another country to willingly do what we ask.

This.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

sheeit y'know what?

FUCK EM! BLOW EM UP TILL THEY HAS DEMOCRUSY!
     \



AMERICUUUUH

FUCK YEAH!


(please note my sarcasm)

[Faust]

you guys are completely ignoring one of the MAJOR points of any discussion about a "middle east solution".

y'know, that whole "access to petroleum is VITAL to our national interests" thing.

It's for real, and no bullshit about "well we need to not be dependent on oil!" fucking DUH. But we are, and unless you have the solution sitting in your basement/garage/workshop, it's pointless wankery to have any discussion about solving the problems in the ME without discussing the impact of their massive oil reserves on both their internal politics and on our external foreign policies.

The ideal distribution of the worlds oil is never going to happen so i wont insult you by going into that.
A step down from that is that the ME nations are allowed to set fair prices on their oil and use its income to develop itself out of the current sick joke that it is.
What we currently have is the "National interest" system, we (or rather our governments) encourage them to blow each other to pieces.
We encourage a skcizm in their politics and keep them unstable.
But heres the funny thing, any terrorist actions only allow a greater control on the area. Give or take a few subway bombings and a couple of unplanned demolitions of the occasional tower and we have a good stake at what is eventually going to be one of the last oil supplies.
its in the national interest not to solve the problems in the middle east.
But its also in the national interest to allow its own people to be killed by disgruntled ME'erns.

[East Coast Hustle]

Yeah, I agree that oil is both the knife held to the western powers throats, and also the object of a great deal of greed and envy. It's probably the singular most important factor in our policy in the region.

Still, I'd rather that policy was dictated by more Liberal than Fascist ideals.

problem is, once the situation gets to the point where your choices are between an illiberal use of force or losing control over your single most vital strategic resource, there aren't going to be any liberals.

[East Coast Hustle]

its in the national interest not to solve the problems in the middle east.
But its also in the national interest to allow its own people to be killed by disgruntled ME'erns.

This. which is why any effort towards solving the problems in the Middle East begin and end with finding a cost-effective alternative fuel source which can be produced domestically. Then the ME won't be our problem any more and shortly after that we won't be their problem either.

Of course, half of them will starve to death and the other half will be crushed by the tanks of their own governments in bloody revolutions that will occur after all the oil money runs out and no one has any reason to protect people like the Sauds anymore, but this is going to happen no matter what anyone does so the best we can hope for is to have politically and economically (as if there's a difference) extricated ourselves from the situation when that happens.

[Corvidia]

its in the national interest not to solve the problems in the middle east.
But its also in the national interest to allow its own people to be killed by disgruntled ME'erns.

This. which is why any effort towards solving the problems in the Middle East begin and end with finding a cost-effective alternative fuel source which can be produced domestically. Then the ME won't be our problem any more and shortly after that we won't be their problem either.

Of course, half of them will starve to death and the other half will be crushed by the tanks of their own governments in bloody revolutions that will occur after all the oil money runs out and no one has any reason to protect people like the Sauds anymore, but this is going to happen no matter what anyone does so the best we can hope for is to have politically and economically (as if there's a difference) extricated ourselves from the situation when that happens.

^ Good long term solution.

However, we still have the Taliban in the mean time. I still think we need to drop Iraq and prevent the nukes from ending up in the Taliban's hands. They won't hesitate to push the button.

[East Coast Hustle]

Do you HONESTLY think that the Pakistani army is going to allow a bunch of dirty-bearded goatfuckers to take control of Islamabad and/or Pakistan's nuclear arsenal?

Surely I'm not the only one who sees the Taliban's "push" into Pakistan as an ISI-orchestrated maneuver designed to cultivate support among the Pakistani populace (and local politicians) for the idea of going to "extreme" measures to "regain" control of their territory and border?

The taliban are not exactly a real army, and they'd get their asses handed to them in a stand-up fight. Islamabad could not be taken surreptitiously and even the taliban themselves know they'd be incapable of taking it AND holding it.

Now, Pakistan is going to have alot of influence on what happens in Afghanistan in both the short and long-term. I wouldn't put it past them to push for concessions for the taliban (regional governmental appointments, etc.) in return for a big public show that gives them room to operate in the manner they see fit.

[Jenne]

Oh yeah, I totally believe this was all maneuvering for Pakistan to have a foothold in Afghanistan and also a move in shoving aside the intelligentsia of Pakistan that have been a mite too vociferous in their disapproval of the way the country's being run these days.  HOWEVER, that's not totally surprising, given how incestuous the relationship between southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan has always been.  What's dispicable is how close Afghans were to kicking out the Talibs on their own until the US decided to spend all its money chasing AQ around and creating civil war in Iraq, instead of building the infrastructure in Afghanistan that would've kept the Talibs out of there for the most part.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Divide + Conquer

The wild goose chase was no accident. What was majorly fucking retarded was that the most people seemed to believe it had something to do with some guy called Osama.

[Subtract Eight!]

you guys are completely ignoring one of the MAJOR points of any discussion about a "middle east solution".

y'know, that whole "access to petroleum is VITAL to our national interests" thing.

It's for real, and no bullshit about "well we need to not be dependent on oil!" fucking DUH. But we are, and unless you have the solution sitting in your basement/garage/workshop, it's pointless wankery to have any discussion about solving the problems in the ME without discussing the impact of their massive oil reserves on both their internal politics and on our external foreign policies.

truth maybe if the us was more honest about the oil thing, "uh we need lots of this stuff and you have it of course we're coming to get it, no offense to your way of life, beside burkas just get caught in car doors we'll make better use of it, please send inquiries to the gun toting gi joe robots"

[Adios]

Do you HONESTLY think that the Pakistani army is going to allow a bunch of dirty-bearded goatfuckers to take control of Islamabad and/or Pakistan's nuclear arsenal?

Surely I'm not the only one who sees the Taliban's "push" into Pakistan as an ISI-orchestrated maneuver designed to cultivate support among the Pakistani populace (and local politicians) for the idea of going to "extreme" measures to "regain" control of their territory and border?

The taliban are not exactly a real army, and they'd get their asses handed to them in a stand-up fight. Islamabad could not be taken surreptitiously and even the taliban themselves know they'd be incapable of taking it AND holding it.

Now, Pakistan is going to have alot of influence on what happens in Afghanistan in both the short and long-term. I wouldn't put it past them to push for concessions for the taliban (regional governmental appointments, etc.) in return for a big public show that gives them room to operate in the manner they see fit.

Here is truth. The reason they have been successful is they force you to come after them on their terms, in their territory. This is the only way a smaller and inferior force stands a chance. You are absolutely correct that in a face to face fight they would be crushed. The Apache Indians used the same tactic to hold two nations at bay for 20 years with an effective fighting force of about 30.

[Reginald Ret]

Half-assed tactical analysis of the options of the USA:

USA needs oil.
ME has oil.

option 1:
  USA invades ME and kills/deports (nearly) everyone and replaces them with americans.
The fight will be relatively short and cheap and the newly acquired territory will be easy and cheap to keep under control.

Main flaw: Control of information flow and its influence on re-election chances.

option 2:
  Trade. Make the ME as dependent on you as you are on them. Preferably more dependent.
The america-hating groups will find its very hard to recruit when their actions would result in a massive reduction in the local quality of life.

Main flaws: Trade is hard to control in the west, if an american corporation makes stuff for the ME they will most likely just become a multinational corp. and start an office in the ME with strongly reduced costs(labor, transport, etc).


In reality the USA govt doesnt have enough control over itself to actually, properly and succesfully execute either of these options.

[Cain]

Do you HONESTLY think that the Pakistani army is going to allow a bunch of dirty-bearded goatfuckers to take control of Islamabad and/or Pakistan's nuclear arsenal?

Surely I'm not the only one who sees the Taliban's "push" into Pakistan as an ISI-orchestrated maneuver designed to cultivate support among the Pakistani populace (and local politicians) for the idea of going to "extreme" measures to "regain" control of their territory and border?

The taliban are not exactly a real army, and they'd get their asses handed to them in a stand-up fight. Islamabad could not be taken surreptitiously and even the taliban themselves know they'd be incapable of taking it AND holding it.

Now, Pakistan is going to have alot of influence on what happens in Afghanistan in both the short and long-term. I wouldn't put it past them to push for concessions for the taliban (regional governmental appointments, etc.) in return for a big public show that gives them room to operate in the manner they see fit.

Finally, someone said the most obvious thing about this whole insurgency theatre.

There are five major factions in Pakistan, roughly speaking.  The military, the ISI, the Government, the Judiciary and civil society (ie journalists, the middle class etc).  The military and the ISI have a tacit alliance against the other three, and the Pakistani Taliban are the dagger at their enemy's throats.

I mean, come on, lets think about this.  South and Central Asia have been the contesting grounds for great powers for 160 years.  Russia/the USSR, China, Iran, the British Raj/India & Pakistan and the USA have all been trying to exercise massive influence over the region, at one time or another (even Saudi Arabia tried playing the game - badly, but still).  The Taliban ain't got shit on the strategists in the Pakistani Joint Chiefs of Staff, and that's a fact evidenced by Pakistan still existing, and the Taliban getting their asses handed to them with less than a decade of rule under their belts.

Lets put it this way - Pakistan's army is not locally called Military Inc. for nothing.  They're big money makers, political movers and shakers, and geopolitical players with deep pockets, long memories and a very far reach.  They've carried out coups, assassinations, black flag operations and deal in drugs and arms and slaves - and we're meant to believe people like this are having their asses handed to them by the Taliban?

No, what's happening is this: the ISI and military have ties to the Taliban because it gave them power and influence and practically an entire new state to do whatever the fuck they wanted with.  What can you do with an entire country, big budgets, an even bigger illegal budget and no oversight?  Make a few millionaires, at the very least.  Additionally, you've got pressure on India and a potential threat to China, your bestest buds in the world, under your control, as well as a gateway from Central Asia to the nearest warm sea port, all under your command.  Empires used to spring up on trade routes, you know.

Basically, the ISI and military are in a win-win situation.  Either the Taliban threat causes the government to get its shit together, and funds and arms and all manner of black ops and deniable slush funds are opened to them and the scenario plays out as above.  Or else, the government caves under the pressure and the military and ISI carry out another coup and take control again, because clearly the Pakistani civilian parliament is too incompetent to be allowed sharp knives, let alone be trusted with running the country. 

Its not like the Pakistani Taliban are a serious guerrilla force.  Hell, the advance that caused the whole OMG ISLAMOFASCISTS WIFF NUKES bed-wetting was a massive failure.  They overextended their forces and had to withdraw, begging promises from Islamabad that shariah law would be instituted in certain regions or else, um, President Zadari would be, like, totally beaten up for his lunch money tomorrow, or something.  In other words, they don't have the manpower to occupy those regions and institute it themselves, or else they would be doing that right now.  Equally, they don't have the manpower to attack Islamabad, or else they would.

And now, not only the Pakistani Taliban knows the true extent of their power, so does everyone else.