Science & Religion

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah, I'm not a trancendentalist by the definition above, and I'm certainly not a materialist, yet I still have aspects of both of those in my "emergence-based spirituality". I've got trouble identifying with the "magical paradigm" though -- some baggage on my part.

Hehehe. Just remember "Magic" in the sense used here has nothing to do with throwing fireballs or seeing the future or levitating

I don't think I've ever gotten a straightforward definition of magic without all the jargon.

Magic: Wishing something and then it happens.

Magicians: People who think wishing will make everything they want to happen, happen.

Reality: When you wish that something goes away, it doesn't go away.

This is so popular a view, especially amongst the majority of so called "adepts" that I'm pretty sure someone did it on purpose for great lulz.

The truth is much more straightforward - magic = systematic self-mindfucking for the purposes of proactively exploring your own brain and rearranging your BIP.

Like I said - fuck the term, it's too loaded with wiccan/chaos/d&d/fortune teller - baggage

I guess it's like pretty much any other human endeavour in history. One or two people came up with something cool and then 50-odd billion complete fucking idiots picked it up and ran with it.

magic = religion = democracy = quantum physics = coffee = teevee = internets

[Honey]

That sounds very much like Pete Carroll's essay on "Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics". In one of his classes he said to keep in mind he was writing from the position of someone who believed in Magic at the time. Pete likes to believe/not believe in whatever, whenever if it suits his purposes. Overall, I like it... but I have to keep reminding myself that some of the 'madjickal' talk is a bit of a muddled model

However, with the above essay, I think there are some very complementary concepts between them. I was also reminded about Bob's discussion in Prometheus Rising where he discusses the tribal basis of religion, the weirdness of so many tribes being thrown together today (The Catholic tribe and the Methodist tribe and the Baptist tribe and the Wiccan tribe and the Hindu tribe all tossed together like a salad).

Anyway, here's the essay, the only format I found it in was flaky so I reformatted it for here:

Thanks & respect, I found this to be interesting although I wasn't attracted to the writing style or lingo.  imo he somehow managed to take a sensual subject & turn it into something dry & lifeless.  A few other thoughts? 

... The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of "life force" present in some degree in all things.  It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic vents. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.

"The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary."??  This is where my bullshit detector starts to buzzzzzzzz.  Insufficient vocabulary?  Sorry no dice.  Sounds like more of the same o lame o elitist buuuuuuullshit where if you can't dazzle'em with the brilliance of creative & original thought (& not to toss any apples here (who me?) but whattabout the likes of Cain & Roger & Triple Zero to name just a few?) then one is instructed to "reel 'em in" with the canned clichés of "we are the enlightened^TM few."  & why is that any different?

Please note (esp literalists):  I have no problem with the notion of creating new words (I love it even) however I remain cynical when the rationale seems to be to create distance & not shorten.

... Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.

... Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.

I like the boldened sentences.  However, it's been said before & much more simply & for me? lyrically.  Don't get me wrong here – I never think it's a mistake to re-state an idea in a different way.  Simple ideas are not always easy to understand.

Cause & effect are not closely related in time and space.  Now then!  & the world will continue to spin with me or without me. 

I've read some of Robert Anton Wilson's work (Prometheus Rising to name just one) & happen to like some of his ideas.  & he, just as Einstein, Darwin & so many others would be pleased as punch that we, as peoples, have moved on & learned new steps.  No sour grapes there! 

Thanks again for your reply!  I do appreciate & like some of it but I, again personally would "rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."  (ee)

Also, I think you would enjoy reading the parts I haven't quoted from the complete speech, the bible stuff parts in particular.  I happen to like what he says about the Agricultural Revolution, makes sense to me & is written in a more sensual way (which, to me, is attractive & is much more likely to elicit a response).

[Chairman Risus]

Yeah, I'm not a trancendentalist by the definition above, and I'm certainly not a materialist, yet I still have aspects of both of those in my "emergence-based spirituality". I've got trouble identifying with the "magical paradigm" though -- some baggage on my part.

Hehehe. Just remember "Magic" in the sense used here has nothing to do with throwing fireballs or seeing the future or levitating

I don't think I've ever gotten a straightforward definition of magic without all the jargon.

From what I've gathered from discussions about it here, it's the ability to think hard enough and change your own mind!
[cue eerie music]

[Kai]

So, basically I've been doing magic all this time, just without all the mumbo-jumbo language...

?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, I'm not a trancendentalist by the definition above, and I'm certainly not a materialist, yet I still have aspects of both of those in my "emergence-based spirituality". I've got trouble identifying with the "magical paradigm" though -- some baggage on my part.

Hehehe. Just remember "Magic" in the sense used here has nothing to do with throwing fireballs or seeing the future or levitating

I don't think I've ever gotten a straightforward definition of magic without all the jargon.

Magic is the Art of Consciousness Change
Magic is a lockpicking set for your BiP.

Magic is a set of concepts and principles which interact with the psychology of the human mind. Magical systems are all based on similar memetic groups, a given system defines a set of specific practices, particularly how they're implemented, what dogma they use and the general aim of the practitioner.  So one magical system will use High Ritual with complex traditions and specific symbols that have been passed down for generations, while another system will use chaos rituals, or paratheatrics which is nothing like High ritual... but the underlying psychological mechanisms will likely be similar. It could be like a difference between classical art and modern art in some sense.

Magic is a set of tools that have instruction books with them, if you want to modify your BiP. Some of the tools are made in Taiwan out of pig iron and the instructions are translated by someone who learned Taiwanese by watching bad anime with the subtitles on. Some of the tools are very nice quality and have instructions that are less confusing. Some of the tools are like erector sets with instructions that read more like "General Principles of Erector Sets" and end with 'Good Luck'.  

Magic is a broad and generic word that covers a number of different ways in which people have experienced changes in their consciousness. Here is an example:

Crowley points to the similarities between Buddha, Christ and Mohammad as well as Moses and Paul. They all were leading one life, then they all went away, something happened (often they see a bright shinning Angel/Deity and speak with it. It tells them what they will do, they came back and led a religious revolution... in most cases, something that would never have seemed likely given their former life.

If we compare those experiences with the experiences Abremlin the Mage had  (Conversing with the Holy Guardian Angel), it is very similar. If we compare that to Crowley's experiences after doing these rituals (His conversations with AWISS), it is again very similar. Just different masks, different labels, different dogmas.

In this day and age, we can further compare those experiences to RAW's "Cosmic Trigger". He figured out the above bit after reading Crowley and decided to try the rituals himself. He experienced communications from aliens on the planet Sirius for a year after getting involved with the rituals as an intentional experiment, as did Phillip K Dick.

The larger problem here, is that almost anyone can get results. If a person follows the directions from 'Magic System X', it is likely that they will get some result (assuming they can chain up disbelief for a little bit). Unfortunately, they often confuse the result with reality, that makes it easy for groups like the Mystic Wicks to pop up. There are enough books available that cover the necessary mechanics for various experiences, that lots of practitioners do experience something. However, often many of them believe whatever dogmatic crap was on top of the practice. Rather than experiencing a phenomena which took the mask of the goddess Kali/Aphrodite/whoever is cool in their head/ they think they experienced Kali/Aphrodite/whoever is cool in their head.

I was very glad that I had some basis of skepticism when I had my first experiences with Magic. Even today, I can't look you in the eye and say I 100% believe that I didn't have some interaction with something amazing. I think it is far more likely that I experienced an interaction within my head, but it felt amazing.

Fortunately, my second amazing experience was with Eris herself and since she acted like the hippy hottie and showed up in a carriage that looked like a bong... I felt far more comfortable with a "Oh this is obviously a set of labels/symbols/masks from my head" explanation.  

Wow, that was a lot longer than I meant to write...

So, basically I've been doing magic all this time, just without all the mumbo-jumbo language...

?

According to Crowley, any act of Will qualifies as magic because its all you consciously impacting the world around you.

From what I've gathered from discussions about it here, it's the ability to think hard enough and change your own mind!
[cue eerie music]

Its a large group of tools which are helpful in making large changes in the way you behave/think/react/perceive. The ability is within any human, as far as I can tell... Magic just covers 'maps' and 'models' that other people have documented that make use of the ability.

[Chairman Risus]

You're making this up as you go, aren't you?

[LMNO]

Sure.  Aren't you?

[Thurnez Isa]

hummm...
what I got from that is
magic is a word for self exploration people use to try to sound cool and hip

[LMNO]

Nope.  It's a bit more specific.

Magic seems to be a series of actions or behaviors designed to alter your current mental state; some tend to be more effective than others.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The words of the foolish and the words of the wise are not far apart in Discordian eyes.

hummm...
what I got from that is
magic is a word for self exploration people use to try to sound cool and hip

Magic is a word for some tools a person can use in self exploration that have been used by other people.

Self exploration can be done without a "cool esoteric system"... though other "uncool psychological systems" I've seen seem to use the same tools and just describe them more clinically. Like Mind Hacks, by O'Riley and Associates. Their homunculus experiments are very similar to the HGA stuff I just talked about... but they don't use the religiously loaded masks.

As P3nT points out, magic as a term has simply been abused to the point that there is a lot of baggage attached to it.

Nope.  It's a bit more specific.

Magic seems to be a series of actions or behaviors designed to alter your current mental state; some tend to be more effective than others.

THIS

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

You're making this up as you go, aren't you?

I make my entire life up as I go along.

[Kai]

Was thinking about this all while mowing the lawn.

Initial conclusion: Primary Discordian documents such as the Principia Discordia and Black Iron Prison are invitations to operate under the Magical Paradigm.

Edit: Also, I can think of many actions or behaviors I do on a daily basis that would fall under the definition of magic, and I'm highly reminded of the What is Chi? thread from nearly a year ago.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Was thinking about this all while mowing the lawn.

Initial conclusion: Primary Discordian documents such as the Principia Discordia and Black Iron Prison are invitations to operate under the Magical Paradigm.

Oh very nice...

[Triple Zero]

What is Chi?

gesundheit.

[Telarus]

Found a quote on my LJ from someone I consider to have a pretty good handle on the magical paradigm that really cuts down to the heart of the matter:

"NeuroLogically speaking, our nervous systems can't really tell the difference between external stimuli and internal representations of the outside world. This is equally true for both "remembered" and "creatively imagined" situations."