Rev Roger Heresy #4: Rejecting Malaclypse the Younger.

[Colonel Failure]

If you notice, no one anwers her posts, hence my joke "no one understands it anyway. No one answered mine when I did, just a game of chaos cop/order cop. Neither worked"

Point.

Well I obviously feel this is a principia forum, so if your discourse and the way you live your life in in direct opposition to the forum's topic, then why the hell are you here for one? Two you're going to clash with those that are here to discuss the principia.

And I feel it's a Discordian forum. Sure, the name is www.principiadiscordia.com, but I wouldn't suggest that this limits the topic of discussion only to the principia. There's a forum for that (Principia discussion), and a forum for silliness (Apple Talk), etc... Of course, being Discordians, we're inclined to blur the lines between them (Where's the fun in staying within the lines, anyway?). And since when is clashing a bad or even undesirable thing? You and I have been clashing, and it's been the highlight of my brief tenure here.

*This bit is directed at everybody, not just you, Tao.*

I think what beeds the hostility is not as much a lack of respect as a failing to consider the impact of what one has to say (and more importantly) the way one chooses to say it.

Sure, we like to think of ourselves as enlightened and, by implication, somehow 'better' than the cabbages and greyfaces we deride. But if someone says something to us that can be taken as an insult, we're just as likely to take it that way and snap into defensive mode as any cabbage. For instance, the exchange between Tao, EVT and Demonica that I quoted in an earlier post.

Tao assumed she was calling him an extremeist, and so did EVT, and so did I. And he reacted by insulting her back. Perfectly normal. But to hear her tell it, she was not meaning to insult him, but rather refrencing a movie and the comment was meant to be taken in the manner of shrink/patient interaction.

In other words, "Tell me about your mother..."

I've looked at some other threads on this board, and noticed her using the exact same verbal construction at different places, where the choice of words she quoted did not lead to misinterpretation, so I am inclined to believe that she was simply misunderstood and didn't mean to insult Tao.

But the thing is, once the mud is flying, nobody seems to care that it was a misunderstanding since everything after that was obviously intentional.

When I criticize people, I try to phrase my comments as inoffensively as possible, not out of any touchy-feely can't-we-all-just-get-along mushiness, but out of simple efficiency. If what you really want is to make your point and have the other party consider it, you're shooting your self in the foot by pissing them off, 'cause then they will never listen to what you have to say, no matter how much sense it makes.

If what you want is to simply stir up some shit, then start mudslinging, by all means. But you do yourself and your fellow discordians a disservice by reducing the debate to namecalling and dismissing any points someone has to make.

What you're talking about is a social circle, that the Rev admits that most here aren't even his type of discordian.

I don't really know the Rev that well, but the vibe I get from his writings makes me suspect he may not be my type of discordian. Then again, maybe he is and the persona he adopts here is an incredibly subtle bit of irony. Maybe both of these things are true. In some sense.

But so what?

He's got the right to speak his mind, and I've got the right to attack his ideas if I think they're wrong. As long as it's the ideas I'm aiming for, not the Rev himself, there's no problem here. If you think he's promoting destructive discord and his ideas are harmful to Discordian goals - you're entitled.

But Eris is the Universe, good and bad both - she can be a lot of fun, and she can be a real bitch, too. Whatever you may think of Rog, he's not a greyface and he's not a cabbage. And by default, I guess that makes him one of us (mainly cause I think catagorizing people is a Bad Thing, and I don't want to come up with another one to put him in).

Personally, I don't think Rog was actually suggesting shrub should be a saint. He knows enough to know that he's a pope, and doesn't have to 'nominate' saints. If he wanted to, he could have just announced Bush's cannonization and it would have been a done deal. I think his goal was simply to stir up some shit - and it succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Your attack on his nomination for GWB for sainthood caused the reaction it did (and this is just my interpretation) because it came across as an elitist, 'I know more about Discordianism than you', kind of a thing. It was the presentation, and not the message that caused this bru-ha-ha (with precious little ha-ha, but lots of bru).

And that was only one specific example, I'll reiterate again that I don't think you bear the sole responsibility for recent incidents of hostility.

But sooner or later somebody's gonna have to take a step back and realize the simple truth that things just got out of hand, and it's time to apologize and move on to more productive pursuits. And by apologize, I absolutely do not mean, 'I was wrong.' Everybody's Wrong here, and Nobody's wrong. More along the lines of, 'I'm sorry if my comments were hurtful.' Or some mamby-pamby crap like that.

And honestly (*low blow alert*), do you think Rog is gonna take the moral high ground here? Not. He's leaning back, enjoying his handiwork. (As well he should be. In some sense.)

Of course, in a perfect world, no apologies would be necessary. Everybody would just look at each other, shrug, and say, "what were we arguing about? Huh... that was silly... now, where were we?" and then get on with more important things.

But what are the odds that everybody here will have an attack of sensibility at the same time?

OK, that's enough of me preaching civility.

Some random loose ends:

Again the reason I find the conventional mainstream religions absurd and destructive is that they are a contradiction to what they proclaim, and hypocrisy makes them ludicris.

If it's the same here, there needs to be a new chapter in the principia to discuss the discordians that are as daft as the other religions.

Discordianism was intended (IMHO) as a sort of Taoist mockery of mainstream religion, and it is only natural (and appropriate) that that a certian amount of hipocrisy is included therein. I mean, come on... there are titles and places in the heirarchy for heretics, ferGoddesssake.

To paraphrase some wholey writings (mainly because I'm too lazy to go get the specific reference right now), 'What would a religion be without a combersome and confusing heirarchy that no one understands? Sensible, that's what. And we'll have none of that here..."

Point is, everything contradictory, arbitrary, or hypocritical that other religions do in the name of threir misguided 'faith', we do *because* it is contradictory, arbitrary, or hypocritical; Integrating the shortcomings of other faiths into our own, and turning them into stregnths is a form of mockery. Other religions choke on such things, or ignore and deny their presence. We embrace and thrive on them.

If you feel that some people here are taking that too far, you're entitled. If Rog, (or anyone else) bothers you that much, just call 'em an Episkopos, then ignore 'em.

You strike me as an intelligent, articulate, and passionate man, Tao. All of those are exceptional qualities - just don't let your passion rule you to the point that is makes you less articulate; Passion may be what drives you to accomplishment, but it can't accomplish anything on it's own.

I think that would be brushing fundamental issues under the carpet.

I would not suggest that this subject be closed. Only that the argument it created be closed. The subject can (and should) be revived with a more civil tone.

I think we need a thread about what we believe and why were all here, but you'd get plenty of nonsense answers that way as well, and folks would consider that too serious for discordians which is why I posted jokingly in the first place.

Yeah, you'd get some nonsense, but I think if we tried we could keep it on track. Won't know until we try, though... so do you wanna start it or should I?

The problem is that when others do it, it's ok, when I do it I'm slammed, I think that the biggest issue.

I think there was some legitimate doubt on the part of the peanut gallery as to how much you were joking and how much you were being serious. Some of them took it perhaps more seriously than you intended them too, and it spiraled out from there. They may not have made similar misinterpretations about others' comments, and that might be construed as a double standard. It might also just be one of those things - I think this whole thing is basically a misunderstanding about tone and subtext, and I don't think anybody misunderstood on purpose.

Since I covered this topic earlier in this post, I won't belabor it again here. I generally despise the use of double standards, but if you're looking for a unilateral act of contrition from the community here, the realist in me says you may be out of luck.

You have basically two options, that I see:

   Forgive and forget.

OR

   Acknowledge and move on.

Over the years, my friendships have been rife with misunderstanding and arguments, and I've learned that you can do a fair degree of both without compromising your principles.

Personally, I'd prefer you took option A, since I'm now looking forward to that serious thread on the principles of Discordianism and I have this little idea of a neat jake I was gonna ask for input on... but you have to do what is right for you, and if it's option B, so be it.

Continuing this cycle of antagonism might technically be option C, but it's not one I can reccommend in good conscience.

Or Kill Me.


-CF

[Colonel Failure]

thats true colonel that wasn't cool... what kind of passive agressive behavior have I been perpetrating by those kinds of statements?!?!?... I like the fact that an articulate third party like yourself pointed this out... ( can I still enjoy my banishment until the curse is lifted( looks on it like a badge of honor))

Though I've been directing my comments at Tao for the most part, I've been hoping that everybody was following along and would pick up on my point - which is simply this:

Nobody's really happy about this dispute. (Except maybe Rog.)

And:

We all created and are perpetuating the dispute together, and we can end it together, too, just by deciding that's what we want to do.

I'll file your comment in my complement drawer, thank you very much.  

And as for your banishment, you certianly don't need my permission to enjoy it - but if you want my opinion, I think that was one of Tao's most over-the-top moments, and quite obvously a joke. And the thread has been rather amusing. (I didn't but in 'cause I wasn't banished.)

I'm just hoping that everybody can count to ten, enhance their calm, and go back to having a joy-joy day.


-CF

[Horab Fibslager]

i have already decided what i'm going to do, but one mighty barrier bars the way to salvation.

support free choice and send me $10 canadian so i can buy a six pack and show predestination who is boss!

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

thats true colonel that wasn't cool... what kind of passive agressive behavior have I been perpetrating by those kinds of statements?!?!?... I like the fact that an articulate third party like yourself pointed this out... ( can I still enjoy my banishment until the curse is lifted( looks on it like a badge of honor))

Though I've been directing my comments at Tao for the most part, I've been hoping that everybody was following along and would pick up on my point - which is simply this:

Nobody's really happy about this dispute. (Except maybe Rog.)

And:

We all created and are perpetuating the dispute together, and we can end it together, too, just by deciding that's what we want to do.

I'll file your comment in my complement drawer, thank you very much.  

And as for your banishment, you certianly don't need my permission to enjoy it - but if you want my opinion, I think that was one of Tao's most over-the-top moments, and quite obvously a joke. And the thread has been rather amusing. (I didn't but in 'cause I wasn't banished.)

I'm just hoping that everybody can count to ten, enhance their calm, and go back to having a joy-joy day.


-CF

please do keep my comment in your complement drawer... as for the rest of it I stand by what I said.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Gawds!

I love a good ole strife session!

With that said,
I love both aspects of the 'Erites', the ancient Greeks were consummate liars, anyway. Just like the modern 'founders' of Discordianism.

If y'all want to follw the leader, join a Marxist group and quit your whining. The Principia is not the be all end all of Discordianism, nor was it meant to be.

That said, I loved Roger's piece.

Folks, we have a jihad to win here. Some people are trying to snub us rogue discordians. Get your golden apples ready!

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

Gawds!

I love a good ole strife session!

With that said,
I love both aspects of the 'Erites', the ancient Greeks were consummate liars, anyway. Just like the modern 'founders' of Discordianism.

If y'all want to follw the leader, join a Marxist group and quit your whining. The Principia is not the be all end all of Discordianism, nor was it meant to be.

That said, I loved Roger's piece.

Folks, we have a jihad to win here. Some people are trying to snub us rogue discordians. Get your golden apples ready!

mines in my  pants... .... struggle!

[gnimbley]

But sooner or later somebody's gonna have to take a step back and realize the simple truth that things just got out of hand, and it's time to apologize and move on to more productive pursuits. And by apologize, I absolutely do not mean, 'I was wrong.' Everybody's Wrong here, and Nobody's wrong. More along the lines of, 'I'm sorry if my comments were hurtful.' Or some mamby-pamby crap like that.

mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap
mamby-pamby crap

Okay. I did my part.

BTW, that's as far as I got in reading your eloquent epistle. gnomes suffer from ADDDDDD [Attention Deficit & Duplicitous Death Defying Dumbass Disorder] and I fell asleep at that point. Sorry. I will do better next time. May I have a cookie now?

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

And it was a good part you did!

[Wow! That was my 5555th post!]

[Efrim]

Gawds!

I love a good ole strife session!

With that said,
I love both aspects of the 'Erites', the ancient Greeks were consummate liars, anyway. Just like the modern 'founders' of Discordianism.

If y'all want to follw the leader, join a Marxist group and quit your whining. The Principia is not the be all end all of Discordianism, nor was it meant to be.

That said, I loved Roger's piece.

Folks, we have a jihad to win here. Some people are trying to snub us rogue discordians. Get your golden apples ready!

We rouges shall be snubed! I mean, We shall not be snubbed! Our demands will be met! Jihad has been declared. No amount of rational discussion can save us now.

*Throws a golden apple into the fire and runs*

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

That's the spirit!!!!!!

Here's some more.

::Hands Efrim a bottle of spirits::

A toast to the jihad!

[Efrim]

That's the spirit!!!!!!

Here's some more.

::Hands Efrim a bottle of spirits::

A toast to the jihad!

That had better be absinthe!

::chugs the bottle except for a little at the bottom which he uses to make a moltov::

ach....gin...

Our demands will be met!!!!

::throws the moltov in no particular direction::

[Bella]

You made a molotov out of my share of the gin!?!?!

Good job.....I hate gin.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

::hands Bella a gallon of tequila::

::throws molotov in a different direction from that above::

[Efrim]

They wanted to cleanse the board? Hahahaha! Obviously they had no fucking idea who they were dealing with.

Jihad!!!!

:throws another moltov:

[Bella]

::hands Bella a gallon of tequila::

::throws molotov in a different direction from that above::

Alrighty then! That's more like it.
Thanks.

::Throws two molotovs in two new directions::