Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?

[LMNO]

So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

[Jenne]

The "you can't tell someone what to do" thing seems ridiculously unrealistic, though.  If the individual in question wants to rape babies and steal from the old...do you just let them?  I think not.  If no one tells anyone what to do for the perfect world, then the people inhabiting it need to be fucking perfect themselves.

We all know that just isn't going to happen.

And if someone is in charge of telling people what to do, they need to be perfect.  The people aren't perfect arguement cuts both ways.

That's where there's a decision made as to what is considered the great good for the assembly--and notice I took the agency out of the decision-making since that's variable.  I'm guessing since there IS an assembly, they will decide (again, differing agencies there as well) about a common good.  How much trust you can put on that is dependant on several varied factors of course.

And I haven't read past this post so if there's something after this more eloquent or whatever, I apologize ahead of time.

[BabylonHoruv]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

Not if you tax the shit out of ciggarettes.  Which I am pretty sure was the point about the NHS in Britain.

[navkat]

So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?

It can be. We're living undeniably longer and longer lives and the last 10 years are not necessarily the cheapest or most self-sufficient ones, either.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

Not if you tax the shit out of ciggarettes.  Which I am pretty sure was the point about the NHS in Britain.

Well, if they're getting more in cigarette tax alone (not counting other sources of income) than it's costing to treat smoking-related illnesses, that is a good point.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

[Thurnez Isa]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

all that would be against your constitution

[Requia ☣]

So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?

No, just all expensive in general.  i don't have enough data to say how smokers compare to non smokers, I know NHS busted the 'fat people are draining our healthcare funds' myth and found that they cost slightly less though, there may be a study for smokers too.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.

While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

all that would be against your constitution

Uh, what? I am pretty sure that smoking, abortion, STD and national healthcare aren't covered by the Constitution.

[Thurnez Isa]

freedom of choice is though

though its still no guarantee in the modern political environment
From a country with health care.. you got nothing to worry about in those matters

You do have to worry about too much bureaucratic intervention, which gets costly

[navkat]

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

Agreed. There's something fundamentally hypocritical about saying "The haves owe it to the have-nots to pay into the pot, even if they're not dipping in" and then scream bloody murder about making people eat right and quit smoking because it's going to cost you money.

[LMNO]

So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

freedom of choice is though

though its still no guarantee in the modern political environment
From a country with health care.. you got nothing to worry about in those matters

You do have to worry about too much bureaucratic intervention, which gets costly

Uh? Freedom of choice? Which bit is that under?

I know freedom of religion, well freedom from a state mandated religion is in there. Freedom to bear arms, freedom to gather, freedom to be free of unreasonable search and seizure... but choice? Esp. choice about abortion, sex, smoking? I think thats a long shot interpretation of any bit of the constitution I can recall at this moment.

Though if you point out the relevant bits, it would probably be easier to grok what you're saying.

[Jenne]

So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

Har, welcome to Pakistan.