I'm making a religion based on Emergence.

[Kai]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, I'm now lost.  Please explain, inside of a paragraph, the central tenets of your religion.  Please keep it simple, because I'm all fucked up on Clonazapam.

Dumb hippy shit mixed with good science.

Um, okay then, don't.  I'm sorry I fucking asked.

[Kai]

Okay, I'm now lost.  Please explain, inside of a paragraph, the central tenets of your religion.  Please keep it simple, because I'm all fucked up on Clonazapam.

Dumb hippy shit mixed with good science.

Um, okay then, don't.  I'm sorry I fucking asked.

I'm sorry. I was really trying to make it simple. Unfortunatly I couldn't think of any way to make it simple except that.

Its not really easy like "the first humans dined in the garden on forbidden fruit and were forever cursed until god came to earth in human form, died and ressurected so the curse could be removed".  Its a whole lot of good science of ecology and biology mixed in with Emergence theory and some morality and well, dumb hippy shit.


I'm sorry.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, I'm now lost.  Please explain, inside of a paragraph, the central tenets of your religion.  Please keep it simple, because I'm all fucked up on Clonazapam.

Dumb hippy shit mixed with good science.

Um, okay then, don't.  I'm sorry I fucking asked.

I'm sorry. I was really trying to make it simple. Unfortunatly I couldn't think of any way to make it simple except that.

Its not really easy like "the first humans dined in the garden on forbidden fruit and were forever cursed until god came to earth in human form, died and ressurected so the curse could be removed".  Its a whole lot of good science of ecology and biology mixed in with Emergence theory and some morality and well, dumb hippy shit.


I'm sorry.

S'ok, I thought you were being facetious.

However, if you want this religion to apply to more than yourself and other specialized scientists, you're going to have to simplify it some.  Also, spelling things out clearly has an additional advantage...300 years from now, it will be less likely to be used as an excuse to kill people.  Jesus' followers wrote down what they did under the assumption that people would take certain things as givens, and look what happened.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

...Which hardly ever attack cities.

I feel ripped off.

[Kai]

Thats where I'm trying to go with this.   I think I explained somewhat in summary a few pages back.

When people realize what they are part of they will no longer fight death with illusions of forever taking. This is not saying utopia, or an end of pain, but those individual humans who choose to see it will know that we are not alone, that we all share in this Process, we're all together in this. We will cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, simply from awareness over time. Awareness breeds empathy, and empathy for each other and for our place in the Process is what we need now, more than anything. Thats how it starts. And I in this at least will not fear death.

In other terms, an end of delusion as to our place as part of a greater ecology via awareness. The delusion is much like what Buddha was on about with aversion and greed (what I call the illusion of taking without giving). The benefit is we will slowly cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, thus saving humans from going extinct from their own wasting in the next several centuries. Like all religions (and social systems) it has a great possibility of being ignored and misused. I admit that.

So, the purpose is to build awareness and save our sorry asses. There's some optimism in there, the beginnings of something.. Like I said at the end, at least I won't be afraid.

[Kai]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

...Which hardly ever attack cities.

I feel ripped off.

So do I. Probably was humans that did the big mammals in. All the large sauropod reptiles are gone, done in by an impact and/or more 65 mya.

I should start introducing myself by saying "Hi, I'm Kai, and I'd just like to thank you and your ancestors for killing off all the giant sloths."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

...Which hardly ever attack cities.

I feel ripped off.

So do I. Probably was humans that did the big mammals in. All the large sauropod reptiles are gone, done in by an impact and/or more 65 mya.

I should start introducing myself by saying "Hi, I'm Kai, and I'd just like to thank you and your ancestors for killing off all the giant sloths."

I'm fairly certain I don't miss the giant sloths.  I mean, how scary would they be?

OH SHIT, A GIANT SLOTH IS ATTACKING!  WE BETTER WALK A LITTLE FASTER!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Thats where I'm trying to go with this.   I think I explained somewhat in summary a few pages back.

When people realize what they are part of they will no longer fight death with illusions of forever taking. This is not saying utopia, or an end of pain, but those individual humans who choose to see it will know that we are not alone, that we all share in this Process, we're all together in this. We will cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, simply from awareness over time. Awareness breeds empathy, and empathy for each other and for our place in the Process is what we need now, more than anything. Thats how it starts. And I in this at least will not fear death.

In other terms, an end of delusion as to our place as part of a greater ecology via awareness. The delusion is much like what Buddha was on about with aversion and greed (what I call the illusion of taking without giving). The benefit is we will slowly cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, thus saving humans from going extinct from their own wasting in the next several centuries. Like all religions (and social systems) it has a great possibility of being ignored and misused. I admit that.

So, the purpose is to build awareness and save our sorry asses. There's some optimism in there, the beginnings of something.. Like I said at the end, at least I won't be afraid.

Sort of like a hive personality thingie, on a religious level?

Also, this seems - and perhaps I'm just not reading it right - that it contains the same fallacy as communism...ie, that people will act in the best interests of their species (or even in their own best interests, period).

[Kai]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

...Which hardly ever attack cities.

I feel ripped off.

So do I. Probably was humans that did the big mammals in. All the large sauropod reptiles are gone, done in by an impact and/or more 65 mya.

I should start introducing myself by saying "Hi, I'm Kai, and I'd just like to thank you and your ancestors for killing off all the giant sloths."

I'm fairly certain I don't miss the giant sloths.  I mean, how scary would they be?

OH SHIT, A GIANT SLOTH IS ATTACKING!  WE BETTER WALK A LITTLE FASTER!

Oh, yeah, TODAY the sloths are actually slow. The giant ground sloths of the past were more like giant bears with dagger sharp claws.



like a mammalian t-rex. sure it eats leaves and berries, but so do grizzly bears.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

unfortunately most of the cool life on this planet has already went extinct

We have giant squid. And colossal squid

...Which hardly ever attack cities.

I feel ripped off.

So do I. Probably was humans that did the big mammals in. All the large sauropod reptiles are gone, done in by an impact and/or more 65 mya.

I should start introducing myself by saying "Hi, I'm Kai, and I'd just like to thank you and your ancestors for killing off all the giant sloths."

I'm fairly certain I don't miss the giant sloths.  I mean, how scary would they be?

OH SHIT, A GIANT SLOTH IS ATTACKING!  WE BETTER WALK A LITTLE FASTER!

Oh, yeah, TODAY the sloths are actually slow. The giant ground sloths of the past were more like giant bears with dagger sharp claws.



like a mammalian t-rex. sure it eats leaves and berries, but so do grizzly bears.

How do we know they weren't slow? 

[Kai]

Thats where I'm trying to go with this.   I think I explained somewhat in summary a few pages back.

When people realize what they are part of they will no longer fight death with illusions of forever taking. This is not saying utopia, or an end of pain, but those individual humans who choose to see it will know that we are not alone, that we all share in this Process, we're all together in this. We will cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, simply from awareness over time. Awareness breeds empathy, and empathy for each other and for our place in the Process is what we need now, more than anything. Thats how it starts. And I in this at least will not fear death.

In other terms, an end of delusion as to our place as part of a greater ecology via awareness. The delusion is much like what Buddha was on about with aversion and greed (what I call the illusion of taking without giving). The benefit is we will slowly cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, thus saving humans from going extinct from their own wasting in the next several centuries. Like all religions (and social systems) it has a great possibility of being ignored and misused. I admit that.

So, the purpose is to build awareness and save our sorry asses. There's some optimism in there, the beginnings of something.. Like I said at the end, at least I won't be afraid.

Sort of like a hive personality thingie, on a religious level?

Also, this seems - and perhaps I'm just not reading it right - that it contains the same fallacy as communism...ie, that people will act in the best interests of their species (or even in their own best interests, period).

No, no hivemind. Just awareness of humans in the greater picture. When I wrote The Process of Sustaining, I had in my mind the most amazing understanding of the greater network that humans were part of, was a real religious experience (seeing a bush spontaneously burst into flame and start talking to you is a religious experience for others but this was more my kind of religious experience). I understood that it was the network itself that allowed the whole thing to continue, and that any part in isolation or domination would cut it up so it no longer sustained that way.

Thats how emergence systems work. For a metaphor, the Internet. While you can think of it as individual computers its the overall large scale networking that makes it work, the networks of computers together. Try to control or dominate it and the whole thing falls apart. This forum. Delusions of controling an empire, taking taxes without giving back, sitting in your palace away from the people in fear, and one day they come along and revolt, there is no control. "E tu, Brute" and its all over for now.

I expect people will do whatever, but I'm rolling with it anyway. No regrets and no apologies. "first, you've got to get mad!"

[Kai]

How do we know they weren't slow? 

Bone structure. Comparative anatomy. Fossils can tell you a whole lot about a species. You can tell what they ate, and how they moved. Bones have muscle attachment scars, showing where the muscles were and how big they were relative to the rest of the body. You think about elephants, how big and lumbering they seem, but oh man I would not want to piss one off.

The reason sloth species today can get away with being so slow is they live in the treetops, camouflaged, and rarely come to the ground. The three toed sloth actually swims quite well, and will slash you bad if you fuck with it.

The giant sloths were conspicuous very large mammals with big claws. They probably didn't spend their time cooling it slow and steady in the treetops. And they had to stand their ground against the big toothed cats back then.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How do we know they weren't slow?  

Bone structure. Comparative anatomy. Fossils can tell you a whole lot about a species. You can tell what they ate, and how they moved. Bones have muscle attachment scars, showing where the muscles were and how big they were relative to the rest of the body. You think about elephants, how big and lumbering they seem, but oh man I would not want to piss one off.

The reason sloth species today can get away with being so slow is they live in the treetops, camouflaged, and rarely come to the ground. The three toed sloth actually swims quite well, and will slash you bad if you fuck with it.

The giant sloths were conspicuous very large mammals with big claws. They probably didn't spend their time cooling it slow and steady in the treetops. And they had to stand their ground against the big toothed cats back then.

Then we should call it something else.  Like "That big bad motherfucker that still went extinct".  Only in Latin.

[Kai]

Megatherium

There is a common misbelief that the sabre-toothed cat Smilodon hunted Megatherium, but healthy adult sloths were far too large for Smilodon to attack. Richard Fariña and Ernesto Blanco of the Universidad de la República in Montevideo have analysed a fossil skeleton of M. americanum and discovered that its olecranon - the part of the elbow to which the triceps muscle attaches - was very short. This adaptation is found in carnivores and optimises speed rather than strength. The researchers say this would have enabled M. americanum to use its claws like daggers.

From Wikipedia.