reality and all that

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Here's a really broad brush Kai, care to use it moar?


Leary seemed pretty convinced that some drugs did key on some of the higher circuits. After experimentation, Wilson did as well. From what I've played with, I think its possible... or at least some kinds of drugs seem to interact with the brain in such a way that it appears easier for the individual to interact with stuff generally modeled in the 5-8 range. (How's that for a generalized statement? )

I find that, for me, drugs can be a useful tool. Huxley pointed out that hallucinogens, for him, appeared to break down the built-in mental processes that ignored the 'unimportant' aspects of reality. In his opinion, the brighter, shiner, more intoxicating reality was probably real, and the more calm, flat, washed out reality is our brain editing out the distracting stuff in real time. He thought it was a evolutionary sort of thing... After all, sitting around all day staring at the very very pretty and shiny colors is a good way to get eaten by a grue or any other critter wandering around on this planet with the slightly evolved primates.

I think that one should never rely solely on drugs to play with their brain. However, I also think that drugs occasionally, act as useful and possibly powerful tools for consciousness change and, of course, recreation.

[Thurnez Isa]

I don't think he was using a broad brush rat but talking about something specific. In which I agree with him, but possibly not as passionate.

[Captain Utopia]

It's science, not bullshit, if it produces repeatable results. If I thought there was only one form intelligence could take, then very likely I would agree with you.

Secondly, I've rarely seen cold-turkey recommended for getting off cigarettes - the cutting down technique seems to produce better results. You can smoke just _one_ less per day, right? Okay - repeat.

Being self-righteous actually makes it less likely that someone will listen to you. See - I told you so! Etc.

[AFK]

Are we talking quitting cigarretes or pot?  Because one might require professional help, depending on the severity and frequency of use. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Are we talking quitting cigarretes or pot?  Because one might require professional help, depending on the severity and frequency of use. 

Agreed! Tobacco is a horribly addicting product.

[Captain Utopia]

Are we talking quitting cigarretes or pot?  Because one might require professional help, depending on the severity and frequency of use. 

Pot. I brought up cigarettes. Point only being that telling someone to give up something completely which they get a lot of pleasure from, seems likely to generate less successful results than an approach of reduction.

[fomenter]

the two are not even close to being in the same category ( being consumed by smoking is about the only similarity).

i couldn't find any statistics but i suspect for long term quitting of cigarettes cold turkey would have a high if not the highest success rate. 

[AFK]

Are we talking quitting cigarretes or pot?  Because one might require professional help, depending on the severity and frequency of use. 

Pot. I brought up cigarettes. Point only being that telling someone to give up something completely which they get a lot of pleasure from, seems likely to generate less successful results than an approach of reduction.

Not if it is done by a professional.  And any drug addict who goes through treatment is sure to relapse.  It is pretty much a built-in expectation by treatment professionals.  But a relapse =/= failure.  If the addict sticks with it, and is committed, there is no reason they can't completely quit using substances. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Are we talking quitting cigarretes or pot?  Because one might require professional help, depending on the severity and frequency of use. 

Pot. I brought up cigarettes. Point only being that telling someone to give up something completely which they get a lot of pleasure from, seems likely to generate less successful results than an approach of reduction.

Not if it is done by a professional.  And any drug addict who goes through treatment is sure to relapse.  It is pretty much a built-in expectation by treatment professionals.  But a relapse =/= failure.  If the addict sticks with it, and is committed, there is no reason they can't completely quit using substances. 

Correct Motorcycle.

If people want to quit any habit (particularly addictive ones), they have to assume there will be occasional slip-ups and not allow that to thwart their determination.

[Captain Utopia]

i couldn't find any statistics but i suspect for long term quitting of cigarettes cold turkey would have a high if not the highest success rate.  

Well the current meme goes something like "if you quit cigarettes, you can't even have a single one, otherwise you'll relapse and are sure to end up injecting pure nicotine into your eyeballs". That's bullshit. Had a couple here and there in the year after I quit (~10 with random spread), enjoyed them immensely, and felt a minor urge to keep going (because smoking is fun), but no other symptoms when I didn't. That was 2-3 years ago now, haven't had (or really wanted) one since.

But if your metric is "I must never ever smoke another cigarette again", then yes - at some point you have to go cold turkey. But it's a lot easier going cold-turkey from 5-a-day, than 40-a-day. And it's a lot easier to get down to 5-a-day if you do it gradually.

Next time you see a nicorette advert (or for other quit-aids), remember that it's in their best interest to repeat to you this "it's so hard" meme in various ways. They have no interest in helping you quit, and they are some of the effective advertisers out there.

But back to the original point. If you're chronic already, then you can't imagine the high you'll get after a few months off. You can't really see much of anything until you start breaking a few ingrained habits.

[Kai]

Here's a really broad brush Kai, care to use it moar?

I wasn't painting a broad brush, I was speaking specifically on this situation. Actually, before editing it several times, I did have several statements about possible uses in creativity, but I really don't think this is relevant right now. What IS relevant is someone is drug addled and obviously can't think straight, and needs to get sober. What is also relevant is that the best thing right now is NOT to suggest the usefulness of drugs. "Get your act together before getting high", remember?

Also, I'm really not looking into Leary's original perspective on these things, because frankly I don't find it that useful. If you can't do it sober, then you can't process it correctly. Really.



Okay, fine, I /will/ paint a broad brush. I really don't care for drug use. I don't do any of it myself, I don't even smoke tobacco or drink alcohol anymore. You know why? Its fucking distracting thats why. I can't hold a coherent conversation with myself when I'm hyped up on caffeine or dumbed down on alcohol. It all comes out muddled and confused, like I haven't been sleeping enough or eating right. You all want to go off and enjoy yourselves getting stoned and enjoying your random drug induced neural firings I don't have any care to stop you, but I find it completely ridiculous when it gets rationalized as anything more than recreational masturbation and 'cheap thrills'. And I find people that do this shit all the time as simply making themselves more /stupid/, either from brain damage, addiction (physical or psychological), or just simply staying in a nonsense useless state of mind all the time (and then you come out of it and forget everything you just did). Those people are distracting themselves from doing real things and making lasting changes. I'll take sobriety and self induced "highs", thank you.

[Thurnez Isa]

i couldn't find any statistics but i suspect for long term quitting of cigarettes cold turkey would have a high if not the highest success rate.  

Well the current meme goes something like "if you quit cigarettes, you can't even have a single one, otherwise you'll relapse and are sure to end up injecting pure nicotine into your eyeballs". That's bullshit. Had a couple here and there in the year after I quit (~10 with random spread), enjoyed them immensely, and felt a minor urge to keep going (because smoking is fun), but no other symptoms when I didn't. That was 2-3 years ago now, haven't had (or really wanted) one since.

But if your metric is "I must never ever smoke another cigarette again", then yes - at some point you have to go cold turkey. But it's a lot easier going cold-turkey from 5-a-day, than 40-a-day. And it's a lot easier to get down to 5-a-day if you do it gradually.

Next time you see a nicorette advert (or for other quit-aids), remember that it's in their best interest to repeat to you this "it's so hard" meme in various ways. They have no interest in helping you quit, and they are some of the effective advertisers out there.

But back to the original point. If you're chronic already, then you can't imagine the high you'll get after a few months off. You can't really see much of anything until you start breaking a few ingrained habits.

statistics =/= current memes

[Captain Utopia]

We're talking about chemical balances in the brain? You think the one our DNA saddles us with is the only "valid" one? Really?  Because it did nothing for you, it can't do anything for anyone else? Really? The house of reality has only one window?

[Captain Utopia]

statistics =/= current memes

Then show your statistics and how they are disassociated from current memes, or you have no argument.

[fomenter]

i couldn't find any statistics but i suspect for long term quitting of cigarettes cold turkey would have a high if not the highest success rate.  

Well the current meme goes something like "if you quit cigarettes, you can't even have a single one, otherwise you'll relapse and are sure to end up injecting pure nicotine into your eyeballs". That's bullshit. Had a couple here and there in the year after I quit (~10 with random spread), enjoyed them immensely, and felt a minor urge to keep going (because smoking is fun), but no other symptoms when I didn't. That was 2-3 years ago now, haven't had (or really wanted) one since.

But if your metric is "I must never ever smoke another cigarette again", then yes - at some point you have to go cold turkey. But it's a lot easier going cold-turkey from 5-a-day, than 40-a-day. And it's a lot easier to get down to 5-a-day if you do it gradually.

Next time you see a nicorette advert (or for other quit-aids), remember that it's in their best interest to repeat to you this "it's so hard" meme in various ways. They have no interest in helping you quit, and they are some of the effective advertisers out there.

But back to the original point. If you're chronic already, then you can't imagine the high you'll get after a few months off. You can't really see much of anything until you start breaking a few ingrained habits.

cold turkey and willpower method are not necessarily the same thing, i quit cold Turkey but it took little or no willpower, changing the programing in your mind first changes how you experience withdrawal, by cutting down you don't change anything in your mind or body your addiction is still there you just deprive your self, which in some ways is reinforcing the need by repeatedly making you experience it.