Book Club: Angel Tech

[LMNO]

Which, and I think you'll agree, has been a HUGE problem of mine. Maybe my biggest problem: setting boundaries, and avoiding both kinds of cosmic wimp out. Second circuit is "ego strength" and power, and having the canoots to stand up for yourself among other things.

So, that page on the Cosmic wimp out was probably the other most important part of AT for me.

Yeah, I recognized what you were saying earlier about that.  There's a discipline needed, to stand up for your emotions, but not to the extent that you attack other people with them.  An equilibrium of comfort. "I am safe, and I am here."

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

It's an unclear variant in AA's book and honestly I think I grokked his book because I had just finished PR and Info Psychology.

In Leary and RAW's model (which is what AA uses) the imprints happen in first and second circuit very early on, while imprints in third and fourth happen later.

First circuit imprints get tied strongly to how 'safe' you feel as an infant... if you cry and get fed/cuddled/loved, then you imprint "The world is safe and fun to explore", if you cry and get ignored, maybe you imprint "The world is lonely and scary!"

Second circuit (according to the model) gets its first imprint as you start to figure out hierarchy within the family. Leary tied it with the Terrible Twos, as a new human is struggling to figure out who's in charge, who's top dog and who's bottom dog.

Third gets imprinted as language and communication start and fourth starts when you begin interacting in society at large... Generally, Leary and Wilson seemed to think that your first three imprints would heavily impact how your fourth circuit imprinted.

AA does a great job with his exploration of the model, but a lot of bits seem to fall through the cracks... I hadn't noticed this before your review as much, since I guess my brain filled in the gaps with PR and IP stuff.

[LMNO]

But with the RAW/TL version, how could any two-year-old develop a Top Dog imprint when dealing with their parents?

99.99% of the time*, the two-year-old loses.  The RAW model doesn't seem to address this.  Additionally, it really seems that the AT model doesn't rely so heavily on the Imprinting theory, and it's beginning to seem to me that the model is much less linear than some of the models allow for.











*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

[LMNO]

Another thing I've noticed that while he does his best to describe how the gears can break down, he doesn't do much in the way of offering solutions.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

I think it happens a lot more often than that. Two year olds are very demanding, and in some circumstances it makes more sense to give in. A parent who tries to give into whatever demands might lead to a top-dog child, but the other bit is that there's a variance. It doesn't mesh with imprinting in the normal sense -- it's more like one is more succeptable to changing one's place at earlier ages than at later ones. It's not JUST the parents either -- siblings would factor in here, and playmates.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

But with the RAW/TL version, how could any two-year-old develop a Top Dog imprint when dealing with their parents?

99.99% of the time*, the two-year-old loses.  The RAW model doesn't seem to address this.  Additionally, it really seems that the AT model doesn't rely so heavily on the Imprinting theory, and it's beginning to seem to me that the model is much less linear than some of the models allow for.



*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

Well, PR covers that somewhat. First, there's siblings which you gotta fight for dominance with, second it depends on how your parents interact with you... If they smack you around and yell then you're bottom dog... if they dote on you and spoil you, you're top dog... if they're smart and treat you like a human, then you'll hopefully end up with a 'positive imprint'... One of the things that Wilson stresses is that a healthy circuit can flow from one extreme to the other, as opposed to being stuck in one corner.

I'm gonna go dig through PR and see if I can clip a few relevant bits.

In the book AA doesn't talk much about 'imprinting' but I think he generally follows the same concept... He's more concerned with focusing on introspection and  modification of the Gears you have... whereas PR talks a lot more about how the circuits get that way in the first place.

Hrmmmm, not sure it that made sense...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 

...the mutation from neonate to "toddler," which involves first of all standing erect. Walking, mastering gravity, overcoming physical obstacles and learning to manipulate others politically are the vulnerable points at which imprinting and heavy conditioning occur. The muscles that perform these power functions are quickly programmed with what become chronic, life-long reflexes.

Depending as always the accidents of the environment— what happens at points of neurological vulnerability—this circuit will organize itself into a strong, dominating role in the pack (or family) or a weak, submissive role. Without going into the jungles with the ethologists, one can observe this mammalian imprinting process in any litter of puppies. It is very quickly determined who is TOP DOG and who is BOTTOM DOG.

Status in the pack or tribe is assigned on the basis of pre-verbal signaling system (kinesics) in which these muscle reflexes are crucial. All of the emotional games or cons listed in the popular psychological game-manuals of Dr. Eric Berne and the Transactional Analysts are second-circuit imprints, or standard mammalian politics.

The standard "authority" reflex on the emotional-territorial circuit is to swell the muscles and howl. You will find this
among birds as well as mammals, and in the Board meeting of your local bank. The standard "submission" reflex is to shrink the muscles, lower the head, and "crawl away." You will find this among dogs, primates, fowl and employees who wish to keep their jobs everywhere.

If the first (bio-survival) circuit is chiefly imprinted by the mother, the second (emotional-territorial) circuit is chiefly imprinted by the father—the nearest alpha male.

In pre-ethological terms, the emotional-territorial circuit is what we usually call "ego." Ego is simply the mammalian recognition of one's status in the pack; it is a "role" as sociologists say, a single brain circuit which mistakes itself for the whole Self, the entire brain-mind apparatus. The "egotist" behaves like "a two year old," in the common saying, because Ego is the imprint of the toddling and toilet-training stage.

Some quotes I found helpful in grokking the RAW/Leary view... which I think AA ascribes to as well... just doesn't focus as much on in this book.

[LMNO]

Without much warning, A.A. circles back to once again bring up Parental Programs.  I guess when he mentioned that First Gear has a tendency to adopt learned programs, he meant to apply it to all the gears.  So, let's learn how to deal with our parents on an emotional level.  Or at least identify more ways that they can fuck us up.

"Parental programs around emotions manifest as three basic orientations, each breeding a distinct emotional style: 1) Attack 2) Repression and 3) Open."  Attack is when you have to constantly prove your love, and the level of proof keeps escalating, forcing you to go to further extremes.  "When family members grow so dose to each other emotionally that communication halts, then greater displays of emotion are required."  The typical reaction to this is to either accept it and smother future partners, or reject it and avoid emotional displays entirely, out of fear of the escalation.

Repression is when the familial love is taken for granted.  "Instead of direct emotional displays to prove family love, the fulfillment of virtues and laws defined by the Mother and Father become the criteria for acceptance. A repressed orientation tends to breed a detached manner of expressing oneself... Also, there may be an emphasis on self-love and gaining recognition through overt status. The direct expression of emotional closeness may have to sublimate through artistic, symbolic and/or humanitarian ideals and activities." 

Open, surprisingly, is not any more of an ideal situation than the first two.  It's that kind of attitude a lot of hippies and bohemians took, letting the kids 'express themselves.' "This particular approach tends to neutralize the roles of Mother and Father as being 'law-makers' in exchange for a kind of democratic anarchy where all members are equal from the start."  It's an interesting game to play to try and defend one of these programs over the others, and then think about what kind of environment you were raised in.  Of course, these aren't exclusive, and any combination of the three can be expressed (for example, I tend to think my childhood was in a Repressed/Open environment).

We'll wrap up the Pretty Vacant Gear Two with A.A.'s version of The Mask.  "Hysterical Passivity - Emotional laziness expresses itself as a lack of "response-ability" to living. This is the passive mask so prevalent amidst the Pretty Vacant. Once the laziness crystallizes, the mask gets stuck on and the emotions grow hysterical beneath the passivity. This is especially common with highly "reasonable and rational" types of people, who, grace permitting, are ever so often subject to complete irrational outbursts. Until those among us can become reasonable enough to be emotional, we will have to continue these periodical bouts of insanity."

Of course, while this is all informative, there isn't much advice as to how to change or even address these new insights into our psyche.  "Standing up for yourself" is easy enough to say, but it would help to have strategies on how to deal with these self-defeating images, and crippling family upbringings.  I only ask because this section is about "mechanics", and I would presume that a manual that identifies problems would also offer solutions.

We move on to Second Gear Broken Record tomorrow.

[Kai]

Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

I think second gear is about power and hierarchy rather than about social collaboration and communication.

Also, in the same way that Thich Nhat Hanh would say that each segment of the eightfold path is in all the others, so is each circuit in the others as well. Isolating them is only for understanding of a part, and what is understood is then integrated into the whole. Recursion, yo.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

I think second gear is about power and hierarchy rather than about social collaboration and communication.

Also, in the same way that Thich Nhat Hanh would say that each segment of the eightfold path is in all the others, so is each circuit in the others as well. Isolating them is only for understanding of a part, and what is understood is then integrated into the whole. Recursion, yo.

That was beautifully stated Kai

[LMNO]

I was going to respond differently, but then I re-read this:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21767.msg759559#msg759559

It's the introduction to Second Gear a few pages back.  I think it addresses my concerns upon a second reading.  I'm being to 'gotcha' right now, I need to take my own advice and just let him say what he's saying.

[Kai]

Which, and I think you'll agree, has been a HUGE problem of mine. Maybe my biggest problem: setting boundaries, and avoiding both kinds of cosmic wimp out. Second circuit is "ego strength" and power, and having the canoots to stand up for yourself among other things.

So, that page on the Cosmic wimp out was probably the other most important part of AT for me.

Yeah, I recognized what you were saying earlier about that.  There's a discipline needed, to stand up for your emotions, but not to the extent that you attack other people with them.  An equilibrium of comfort. "I am safe, and I am here."

Which is why, incidentally, it is okay for me to charge out into the commons room and talk sternly in a loud voice to my flatmates when they get loud with company at two in the morning, and NOT feel bad about it later. Thats me saying, "I'm here, and you overstepped my boundaries in a rude way so back off".

Of course, my flatmates haven't talked to me since, while I don't hold any animosity about what happened. Some people hold grudges, which to me shows a pretty weak 2nd circuit.

[LMNO]

Well, you probably should talk to them again.  Since they don't know the Gear Game, they can't be expected to know you're not going to act like every other monkey.  They probably think you permanently hate them now, and may be surprised to know that you don't.

[Kai]

Probably.

[Triple Zero]

*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

I think it happens a lot more often than that. Two year olds are very demanding, and in some circumstances it makes more sense to give in.

Yeah, I was immediately thinking of the "little emperor" kids in China's one-child policy (they still have that, btw?)

But it's not a real well-developed type of alpha dog program, more like a spoiled brat program, which usually just has one way to exert its dominance, by throwing a tantrum. Which really only works with people that got an underdog imprint in the same situation.