ATTN LMNO - quantum fluctuation within a vacuum

[Kai]

Star trek style metaphor: when you average out random noise it generally goes to zero. well the popping in and out of existence could be like the background noise upon which everything else rest, it also goes to zero when averaged

So, the universe has "background noise", but it averages out to zero, so we don't have to explain why its there?

This is of course not related to continuing photons like the microwave background radiation.

[Faust]

Star trek style metaphor: when you average out random noise it generally goes to zero. well the popping in and out of existence could be like the background noise upon which everything else rest, it also goes to zero when averaged

So, the universe has "background noise", but it averages out to zero, so we don't have to explain why its there?

This is of course not related to continuing photons like the microwave background radiation.

No It was directly addressing the photons coming into existence as both a photon and its opposite are created giving an overall of zero if combined. And its not about explaining why its there, the whole line of thought arose from how electrons deflect each other without making physical contact.
Its explained as a photon passing between the two changing the overall momentum of each.
The virtual photon thing came about from a line of thought addressing the "well how does an electron know to emit the photon", so it concluded that it is constantly emitting and reabsorbing photons.
Everything beyond that gets really sketchy.

[Kai]

so, matter is constantly emmitting and reabsorbing these short lived energy partcles and the particles are blinking in and out of existence in pairs on their own and this whole universe is just this giant canvas where stuff happens on and we can't possibly understand what the hell is going on except by our fragmented filtered observations, which really don't help much.

[Bruno]

In order for there to be an average of zero, wouldn't half of the particles have to have negative mass-energy?

Also, seems like this has something to do with Hawking radiation.

[Igor]

They don't average to zero. There is always an energy associated with a region of space, even if it completely empty. It's called the vacuum energy and it might be one of the reasons why the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

Hawking radiation happens when a particle/antiparticle pair is created near the event horizon of a black hole. One of the pair is close enough to be sucked in, but the other escapes. It can't get annihilated now, so it acts like a normal particle. This makes it look like the black hole is emitting particles (Hawking radiation). It causes black holes to eventually "evaporate". This process gets faster and faster since smaller black holes evaporate faster.

so, matter is constantly emmitting and reabsorbing these short lived energy partcles and the particles are blinking in and out of existence in pairs on their own and this whole universe is just this giant canvas where stuff happens on and we can't possibly understand what the hell is going on except by our fragmented filtered observations, which really don't help much.

Ladies and gentlemen, theoretical physics! 

[Kai]

They don't average to zero. There is always an energy associated with a region of space, even if it completely empty. It's called the vacuum energy and it might be one of the reasons why the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

Hah! I knew this energy out of nothing thing was BS. Particles out of unobservable energy, maybe, but not energy out of nothing.

[Bruno]

Hawking radiation happens when a particle/antiparticle pair is created near the event horizon of a black hole. One of the pair is close enough to be sucked in, but the other escapes. It can't get annihilated now, so it acts like a normal particle. This makes it look like the black hole is emitting particles (Hawking radiation). It causes black holes to eventually "evaporate". This process gets faster and faster since smaller black holes evaporate faster.

But if the black hole is decreasing in mass, doesn't that mean the particles have negative mass-energy?

[Igor]

They don't average to zero. There is always an energy associated with a region of space, even if it completely empty. It's called the vacuum energy and it might be one of the reasons why the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

Hah! I knew this energy out of nothing thing was BS. Particles out of unobservable energy, maybe, but not energy out of nothing.

Well no. The vacuum energy arises from the fact that the virtual particles don't average to zero. The energy is the result of the particles, not the other way round.

Hawking radiation happens when a particle/antiparticle pair is created near the event horizon of a black hole. One of the pair is close enough to be sucked in, but the other escapes. It can't get annihilated now, so it acts like a normal particle. This makes it look like the black hole is emitting particles (Hawking radiation). It causes black holes to eventually "evaporate". This process gets faster and faster since smaller black holes evaporate faster.

But if the black hole is decreasing in mass, doesn't that mean the particles have negative mass-energy?

No again, It's just the same as someone in a  balloon throwing weights out of the basket. The balloon gets lighter and rises, but the weights don't need to have negative energy.

[Kai]

They don't average to zero. There is always an energy associated with a region of space, even if it completely empty. It's called the vacuum energy and it might be one of the reasons why the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

Hah! I knew this energy out of nothing thing was BS. Particles out of unobservable energy, maybe, but not energy out of nothing.

Well no. The vacuum energy arises from the fact that the virtual particles don't average to zero. The energy is the result of the particles, not the other way round.

then where do the virtual particles come from? don't say particles, cause there aren't any in a virtual vacuum

[Igor]

Um... As far as I can tell, they come from nothing.

Not exactly satisfying, but that's the universe for you.

[Igor]

Actually, maybe I can explain this better.
In classical physics, there's the harmonic oscillator. Which can describe a pendulum, a weight and a spring, etc. When you analyse a system like this using quantum mechanics, you discover that there is a lowest possible energy, usually called the "zero-point energy".

Now, the fields that describe different particles and their interactions can be modelled as a big square grid of springs and weights, all attached to each other. So if you displace one weight and then let go, the disturbance will propagate outwards. This just describes particle, travelling. But since this is quantum, there is a lowest possible energy. There is always some disturbance.

Which I think means that the vacuum energy and the virtual particles are the same thing, neither one causing the other.

[Bruno]

No again, It's just the same as someone in a  balloon throwing weights out of the basket. The balloon gets lighter and rises, but the weights don't need to have negative energy.

So mass is escaping from inside the event horizon?

[Kai]

Um... As far as I can tell, they come from nothing.

Not exactly satisfying, but that's the universe for you.

the vacuum energy and the virtual particles are the same thing, neither one causing the other

So, its just latent energy that happens to manifest as matter.

Actually, that's rather satisfying, and fits in with my worldview quite nicely. It might be made up bullshit still, but its okay made up bullshit.

[Reginald Ret]

No again, It's just the same as someone in a  balloon throwing weights out of the basket. The balloon gets lighter and rises, but the weights don't need to have negative energy.

So mass is escaping from inside the event horizon?

I thought that was negative mass getting stuck inside the event horizon?

[Igor]

Yeah, Regret is right, I got confused there. One particle has negative energy and goes in, the other is positive and gets emitted as the Hawking radiation.

Which makes no sense if I want the vacuum energy to average to nonzero...
Aaaaaaaagh