Ok, Republicans. We give up!!!

[fomenter]

the health care we have is less than perfect
government already is got its fingers in the system we have
government fucks things up consistently
adding more government to a health care system that is already in trouble is going to help ?

i have visions of this creating a healthcare system that ends up being random parts sewn together like something from a Nanking experiment. bad insurance policy welded to government agencies  sewn to existing government medical programs kept running on a taxation life support system..


maybe goverment can do a good   job of it   this time  

[Golden Applesauce]

And now for my argument on why public healthcare is just another kind of public infrastructure.

Infrastructure is a system, which while not necessarily generating profits in and of itself, nevertheless is a net gain for just about everybody.  Roads and bridges many not be revenue sources, but the profits enabled by having cheap, safe transportation of goods and raw materials benefits everybody, far exceeding the cost to build and maintain them.  Likewise, the local police don't make a dime of profit when they apprehend a criminal, and in fact lose a great deal of money employing, training, and equipping officers, but having a safe community is better for every business in the area.

Now, American businesses lose an ungodly amount of money every year in lost productivity when employees get sick and are unable to work, or at least unable to work as efficiently.  The current setup, with few (if any) paid sick days and little health insurance, means that an employee who is getting sick will usually take as little off work as possible, coming in for several days at reduced efficiency before finally getting too sick to work and missing even more time completely.  (Those who get sick enough will soon find themselves with little currency, which very quickly leads to becoming one of those "irresponsible whiney people" who can't afford their own healthcare.  I knew I'd get to that point somewhere.)  And if the above employee is actually contagious, prepare for even worse results.  People without healthcare and paid sick days (Americans get a disgustingly low number of paid sick days compared to civilised-with-an-S countries) end up paying for the pound of cure rather than the ounce of prevention.  Overall, we'd be paying less money with a good universal healthcare plan.

I hate to argue with hypothetical situations, but bear with me for a moment here.  Suppose there was a dangerous, contagious disease with the potential to blossom into a pandemic, whose initial symptoms were very similar, if not identical to, the common flu.  Remember that this is all hypothetical - any resemblance to the Bird Flu, the Swine Flu, or any of a bazillion agents possibly employable as a bioterror attack is purely coincidental.  Now, Alice starts developing flu-like symptoms.  Since she doesn't have any paid sick days and a doctor's visit would have to come out of her pocket, she decides to just be responsible and provide for her kids by going in to work.  This is normally a pretty safe decision - statistically, she'll recover from the flu on her own in a few days, and if any of her coworkers gets sick from her, that's a cost that management pays, not her.  Unfortunately for Alice, this is a hypothetical scenario in which the above dangerous, contagious disease exists.  Had she gone to the doctor's and taken off work, as she probably would have if she had had insurance and paid sick days, the doctor would after a simple test have discovered that this was not the common flu but the Contagious, Lethal, and Hypothetical Flu (good thing it's only hypothetical, otherwise we could be in trouble.)  The doctor would have been able to notify somebody important about this, who would be able to implement anti-pandemic policies and suchlike.  Since she didn't go to the doctor, however, the disease spreads undetected through the office until it reaches somebody who does have health insurance, when it is reported.  So by the time people are aware that the thankfully hypothetical disease is in their area, it's already established a foothold.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

[fomenter]

but is all medical infrastructure?? is it infrastructure to provide some 400+ pound slug a roll-around so he can get his fat ass down to MacDonald's to eat more of the food that is killing him?  is it infrastructure to pay for his chosen lifestyle? the one that is killing him and causing him to need medicine?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

but is all medical infrastructure?? is it infrastructure to provide some 400+ pound slug a roll-around so he can get his fat ass down to MacDonald's to eat more of the food that is killing him?  is it infrastructure to pay for his chosen lifestyle? the one that is killing him and causing him to need medicine?

in the UK they would come further down any transplant lists ect for smoking drinking and that, until they remedy the situation.

All medical is infrastructure here, tho, altho there are some restrictions when you did it to yourself

[Cainad (dec.)]

the health care we have is less than perfect
government already is got its fingers in the system we have
government fucks things up consistently
adding more government to a health care system that is already in trouble is going to help ?

i have visions of this creating a healthcare system that ends up being random parts sewn together like something from a Nanking experiment. bad insurance policy welded to government agencies  sewn to existing government medical programs kept running on a taxation life support system..


maybe goverment can do a good   job of it   this time  

Which is why the government health plan should be completely separate from the private sector. A public option, if you will. The government not only can run a competent and effective health care system, it already does. It's a matter of expanding public coverage in a way that preserves that competence.

but is all medical infrastructure?? is it infrastructure to provide some 400+ pound slug a roll-around so he can get his fat ass down to MacDonald's to eat more of the food that is killing him?  is it infrastructure to pay for his chosen lifestyle? the one that is killing him and causing him to need medicine?

God, I hope not.

[fomenter]

you are far more optimistic than me if you think obama's heath care isn't going to be some insurance/government/medical industry mutant hybrid that eats taxpayers... but dont let my curmudgeony cynicism spoil the surprise for you..

[Golden Applesauce]

you are far more optimistic than me if you think obama's heath care isn't going to be some insurance/government/medical industry mutant hybrid that eats taxpayers... but dont let my curmudgeony cynicism spoil the surprise for you..

My only primary worry about this is that with all the lobbyists everywhere, any "reform" will just end up lining the pockets of Big Pharma.  Effective monopoly is one thing, monopoly with gov't backing is entirely another.

[fomenter]

you are far more optimistic than me if you think obama's heath care isn't going to be some insurance/government/medical industry mutant hybrid that eats taxpayers... but dont let my curmudgeony cynicism spoil the surprise for you..

My only primary worry about this is that with all the lobbyists everywhere, any "reform" will just end up lining the pockets of Big Pharma.  Effective monopoly is one thing, monopoly with gov't backing is entirely another.

i am sure you have nothing to worry about, when was the last time the lobbyists that fund campaigns got their way when it came time to legislate? nothing at all to worry about..  nothing at all   

[Cainad (dec.)]

you are far more optimistic than me if you think obama's heath care isn't going to be some insurance/government/medical industry mutant hybrid that eats taxpayers... but dont let my curmudgeony cynicism spoil the surprise for you..

Now that's a legitimate concern.

Still, I say let it go through. New decade coming up; need new things to bitch about.

[LMNO]

The total cost of treatment was probably close to a million dollars, without health insurance.

what?

I have to say, with my healthcare I'm always surprised how much it actually costs, because I hardly ever get a bill, but sometimes I see it on my insurance reports.

But a million? Wow.

afaik, insurance companies rate the value of a human life at something like 100k-200k or so. (yes of course they do the fight club thing, you bet health insurance companies have a price on a human life)

lymphoma. His treatments were fucking INTENSE. Basically, his entire lymph system was at risk, plus his marrow was compromised. So, yeah.


Also singer, it was an elipsis attack, but i liked your post.

[Jenne]

So, Alphancecand I share  a nasty secret: just cuz you excaped one variation of fucked up death, doesn't mean another ain't waitin round the corner...

We CANT in this house celebrate the life continuancy of my husband because he may at any point succumb to leukemia. And it is breaking my heart to simply type that out. Because having beat the odds once, the chances of surviving that. I'll leave it there shall I?

[Cain]

Another thought I had last night, but was unable to post.

While I would tend to agree an opt-in service is more philosophically to my liking, there is an inherent free rider problem with that which does have its own problems.

Example: assume the system is opt-in, and 65% of Americans decide to plump for this affordable/free at point of treatment/whatever Universal Healthcare, and 35% do not.  Even though those 35% are not part of the system, they still benefit from it.  In the case of many infections and minor diseases, that most people can quickly and easily get treatment will arrest their development - reducing the likelihood of it spreading through the population and of an individual, covered by the Universal System or not, catching it.  The improved productivity alluded to would bring economic benefits to the country as a whole, perhaps leading to decreases in taxes and more jobs, more investment and so on.

In that sense, health does become a public good.  And the only way I can see to deal with this, is either to allow the freeloaders to carry on the way they are (which is highly unfair to everyone who is paying for the system - why should they pay their way and others not) or to include them in the system, because of the intangiable, not immediate benefits the system will provide them as well.

[singer]

Also singer, it was an elipsis attack, but i liked your post.

you say that like stylistic annoyance isn't a necessary part of the PD oeuvre?

[Golden Applesauce]

Also singer, it was an elipsis attack, but i liked your post.

you say that like stylistic annoyance isn't a necessary part of the PD oeuvre?

Moar semicolons; fewer ellipses.