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Ok, Republicans. We give up!!!

Started by Iason Ouabache, August 10, 2009, 04:37:35 PM

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Elder Iptuous

i haven't heard him in a while....
Hasn't he got a better speech synthesizer yet?  there's no reason he couldn't have the accent and voice inflection of his choice now, right?

also, although i really don't know jack about the health care system,  i'd like to weigh in on the side of not wanting it run by the govt.  It seems that wanting this would require faith in the competence and benevolence of the govt., neither of which i possess.

i have tried to engage a few people who were passionate about the health care debate, but my questions were answered with nonsense after a short amount of time in each case.  i have given up attempting to get a good understanding of this complex problem at the moment, as i don't have the time to devote to becoming an expert.  i simply have to observe my fundamental belief stated above, and then fall on the side of this group of nuts, as opposed to that group of nuts in regards to the current legislation.  i think most people are in the same situation, however they feel that if they don't go around acting like they know what they are talking about, then the other side will 'win'.

among all the health care experts here,  :wink: has anyone looked at the feasibility of health care coops as an alternative to for-profit insurance etc?  just something i'm curious...

Igor

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
i haven't heard him in a while....
Hasn't he got a better speech synthesizer yet?  there's no reason he couldn't have the accent and voice inflection of his choice now, right?

Apparently he sees the computery voice as his voice now, and goes to great lengths to make sure his new computers keep the old voice.
Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Elder Iptuous

Quote from: Igor on August 12, 2009, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
i haven't heard him in a while....
Hasn't he got a better speech synthesizer yet?  there's no reason he couldn't have the accent and voice inflection of his choice now, right?

Apparently he sees the computery voice as his voice now, and goes to great lengths to make sure his new computers keep the old voice.

you're shitting me.
serious? he has decided that Dr. Sbaitso is his true voice?!

Jenne

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
i haven't heard him in a while....
Hasn't he got a better speech synthesizer yet?  there's no reason he couldn't have the accent and voice inflection of his choice now, right?

also, although i really don't know jack about the health care system,  i'd like to weigh in on the side of not wanting it run by the govt.  It seems that wanting this would require faith in the competence and benevolence of the govt., neither of which i possess.

i have tried to engage a few people who were passionate about the health care debate, but my questions were answered with nonsense after a short amount of time in each case.  i have given up attempting to get a good understanding of this complex problem at the moment, as i don't have the time to devote to becoming an expert.  i simply have to observe my fundamental belief stated above, and then fall on the side of this group of nuts, as opposed to that group of nuts in regards to the current legislation.  i think most people are in the same situation, however they feel that if they don't go around acting like they know what they are talking about, then the other side will 'win'.

among all the health care experts here,  :wink: has anyone looked at the feasibility of health care coops as an alternative to for-profit insurance etc?  just something i'm curious...

I don't know ANYone who wants the government in America to take over anything other than what they absolutely have to.

Be that as it may, in the choices of: have not, or have...having one that's run by the government is going to supersede not having any at all.

Co-ops may be the midway step, since I really sincerely doubt that the Democrats are going to "man up" and institute universal health care.  The fact is, the insurance companies have screwed the pooch so far on this one, there's no way this runaway train can ever be brought back on track.  We have the most expensive health care system in the world, but it's also deeply inefficient to the point of failure and near-bankruptcy.

It goes so far as to be crippling to the industry as a whole, and it will take a government takeover to fix it.  Period.  Regulation is the only way out of this at this point.  The red herrings thrown out by Newt I'm-a-big-white-hypocrite Gingrich and Sarah I-flunked-basic-learning-in-school Palin have only served to confuse a public that should be learning their options, not screaming about what people are telling them is going to be taken away.

The debate is better clarified by just realizing the following:  SOMETHING'S gotta GIVE.  In this case, it will be (hopefully) the demise of big business running health care in the US into the ground.

(Unfortunately, big business and the government tend to be fucking every night under the sheets)

Sir Squid Diddimus

Soundwave's old voice from the cartoon or GTFO

Iptuous- about gov't run healthcare, it would sure beat the hell out of what I have now. People who already have insurance can keep what they have. They aren't going to force everybody onto their thing, it'll just make the rates more competitive.
I really can't say how great or shitty it would be. I had military health insurance when I was a kid and what I can say about that was when I got sick, I got treated. I could see a doctor and get medicine. When I broke a bone, it got set, I got crutches and my parents didn't get a few thousand dollars in med bills (like I did a few years ago, there's more awful to that story too that I won't go into, my ankle will never be the same because of money).

I want something. Something I can afford. I can't spend $450 a month on insurance with a shitty deductible and big co-pays and you have to pay for all your prescriptions and all the other shit they won't cover.
I just can't afford that, that's groceries, man.

I just want SOMETHING. I don't care how shitty it is. Long as it's cheap, I know you get what you pay for.

Requia ☣

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Igor on August 12, 2009, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
i haven't heard him in a while....
Hasn't he got a better speech synthesizer yet?  there's no reason he couldn't have the accent and voice inflection of his choice now, right?

Apparently he sees the computery voice as his voice now, and goes to great lengths to make sure his new computers keep the old voice.

you're shitting me.
serious? he has decided that Dr. Sbaitso is his true voice?!

It'd be weird as hell to hear his voice as anything else for me.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Elder Iptuous

Jenne,
If the system is broken and failing, then it will be replaced organically with something else. (why wouldn't it?)  Presumably, something that works better. (at least initially)
why do you say that .gov takeover is the only way to fix this situation?  Things break under development and growth and are replaced by something else.  That seems completely natural...
now if .gov comes in to 'fix' the situation it will displace any organic solution that is voluntarily participated in by the consumer, no?  how is this beneficial?  Especially when you note the corruption inherent in our current gov?


Squid,
having insurance through my employer, I haven't had to look for individual private insurance.  Is there really no affordable option for you?  Are there no co-op group health things that you can get on?  I'm assuming you are self-employed.... I thought I heard about self-employment group health options on NPR a month or so ago.
Also, regarding the military health care, I can relate. I'm an airforce brat.  When I was born I cost my folks $18. (which they not infrequently remind me)  I had decent health care and it cost them very little.  But that's simply because it was taxpayer funded... it really wasn't any cheaper I'm guessing, except for the fact that you could get litigious if things went poorly, so that's not a risk cost added...  If you join up, then you too can get healthcare on the backs of the US taxpayer. (I hear they are hiring resettlement camp guards right now).
I can understand wanting health care if you aren't able to afford it right now, but i don't see it as a 'right' so I can't get behind the .gov providing it.

Jenne

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 05:25:25 PM
Jenne,
If the system is broken and failing, then it will be replaced organically with something else. (why wouldn’t it?)  Presumably, something that works better. (at least initially)
why do you say that .gov takeover is the only way to fix this situation?  Things break under development and growth and are replaced by something else.  That seems completely natural…
now if .gov comes in to ‘fix’ the situation it will displace any organic solution that is voluntarily participated in by the consumer, no?  how is this beneficial?  Especially when you note the corruption inherent in our current gov?


[snip]
I can understand wanting health care if you aren’t able to afford it right now, but i don’t see it as a ‘right’ so I can’t get behind the .gov providing it.


Because--there's nothing else.  There's no one else.  Who do you propose?  I may not trust my government, but I trust the corporations even less.  Lesser of 2 evils.  And there are other countries, one to the very north of us, who have been very successful.

By the way, Ippy, by strict definition, we ALREADY HAVE a socialist health care system in our government--medicare makes it so.  This is just one more step so that we don't keep screwing the backsides of the poor and the middle class as well.

Lastly, I find your last statement infinitely sad.

LMNO

If the system is broken and failing, it will be gamed and defended by the people who make money off the broken system.  If it is replaced, it will be replaced by whatever system those in power want it to be.  At this point in time, the government is the only power system that is (theoretically, at least) "for the people".  It sucks, and it's corrupt, but it's the only system ordinary people can (try) to influence.


You can get self-insured, but it has been shown (Slate, I think) that many of the contracts have language that can deny you coverage for just about anything.  So you "have" insurance, but it doesn't actually "insure" you.

Elder Iptuous

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 05:29:38 PM
Because--there's nothing else.  There's no one else.  Who do you propose?  I may not trust my government, but I trust the corporations even less.  Lesser of 2 evils.  And there are other countries, one to the very north of us, who have been very successful.
if you don't like what a corporation provides, you can ignore them.  deny them your money. (assuming they aren't in collusion with the .gov)  you cannot say the same thing about the .gov, so we need to be more careful with what power we hand to them.

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 05:29:38 PMBy the way, Ippy, by strict definition, we ALREADY HAVE a socialist health care system in our government--medicare makes it so.  This is just one more step so that we don't keep screwing the backsides of the poor and the middle class as well.
I agree.  medicare is a socialist health care system that is now failing.

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 05:29:38 PM
Lastly, I find your last statement infinitely sad.
Yes.  it is.  i am slowly coming to realize that i am, by most definitions, evil.

Quote from: LMNO on August 12, 2009, 05:34:18 PM
If the system is broken and failing, it will be gamed and defended by the people who make money off the broken system.  If it is replaced, it will be replaced by whatever system those in power want it to be.  At this point in time, the government is the only power system that is (theoretically, at least) "for the people".  It sucks, and it's corrupt, but it's the only system ordinary people can (try) to influence.
I don't think that the people that make money off the system will simply back down if the .gov takes over something.  they will simply have undue influence on a structure that can enforce their decisions with a monopoly on violence.  stick you in a hole if you don't comply. that hardly seems to be an improvement.
as far as ordinary people influencing systems, i would think that the collective effect on the market is just as strong an a stronger influence than the collective effect on the political structure.

Quote from: LMNO on August 12, 2009, 05:34:18 PM
You can get self-insured, but it has been shown (Slate, I think) that many of the contracts have language that can deny you coverage for just about anything.  So you "have" insurance, but it doesn't actually "insure" you.
The .gov's legitimate function is to enforce voluntary contract and prosecute fraud. so they should step in on these cases.  that doesn't mean they should provide the coverage.

Jenne

"Deny them your money"?  And then they bankrupt you.  To death.

Come on, dude.  Really?  You think that capitalism and the Free Market(tm) are going to work here?  That's a no-go show at this point in time.  We've tried it, it failed.  Period.  40m Americans sans health care, and the government is already picking up what tabs are to be had, when people can get the gumption up to get some doctoring.

Medicare is actually one of the few things that IS working.  Medicare allows doctors to do the doctoring, not the insurance companies who know fuckall about what procedures are needed and what meds are needed.

Private practices and private hospitals are "treating and streeting" atm.  That's failure.  When the bottom line figures in more than a person's health, that's failure.  What's your life worth?  What's your kid's life worth?

More to you than you can pay, at this point.

Sir Squid Diddimus

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 05:25:25 PM
~snip~

Squid,
having insurance through my employer, I haven't had to look for individual private insurance.  Is there really no affordable option for you?  Are there no co-op group health things that you can get on?  I'm assuming you are self-employed.... I thought I heard about self-employment group health options on NPR a month or so ago.
Also, regarding the military health care, I can relate. I'm an airforce brat.  When I was born I cost my folks $18. (which they not infrequently remind me)  I had decent health care and it cost them very little.  But that's simply because it was taxpayer funded... it really wasn't any cheaper I'm guessing, except for the fact that you could get litigious if things went poorly, so that's not a risk cost added...  If you join up, then you too can get healthcare on the backs of the US taxpayer. (I hear they are hiring resettlement camp guards right now).
I can understand wanting health care if you aren't able to afford it right now, but i don't see it as a 'right' so I can't get behind the .gov providing it.


A) No, or I would have insurance.
B) WHAT?? I work for a giant bank. A giant bank that gives not one or two shits about the little guy that works for them.
Self employed. Pffffsht. I WISH.

C) You don't see healthcare as a right? So, if I get sick, I don't have the right to get treated and live? Thanks buddy.

Here's another rant from dear old Squid-

I have a friend who claims to be disabled because she got hooked on anti-psychotics and anti-depressants while in the midst of trying to get attention.
She gets social security checks every month (that I pay into) and free fucking healthcare.
She doesn't work. I repeat- SHE DOESN'T WORK! (bitch)

I work my ASS off, have the carpel tunnel and tendinitis to prove it (also a bad back and something with my connective tissue being fucked up as well as degenerative disease in my lower lumbar) and I have NO INSURANCE. I pay into medicaid, that I cannot has, bi-monthly.
Ya herd? I can't see a doctor to fix the problems caused by my job, while my friend sits on her stupid ass popping pills pretending to be crazy and doing NOTHING with no responsibilities.

Is that fair? Fuck off America.

"There's workman's comp if it was job related", Been there done that they did nothing for me except give me anti-inflamatories that made me puke in my pance.

I work hard. I work long hours, at night, sacrificing family time to give them a roof over their heads. I can't see a doctor??
You don't think I have the right?
What. You think insurance is a privilege? No, sir. I do not agree with you.
I think everyone has the right to live. And the right to live comfortably.


Elder Iptuous

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PM
"Deny them your money"?  And then they bankrupt you.  To death.
:? explain...

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMCome on, dude.  Really?  You think that capitalism and the Free Market(tm) are going to work here?  That's a no-go show at this point in time.  We've tried it, it failed.  Period.  40m Americans sans health care, and the government is already picking up what tabs are to be had, when people can get the gumption up to get some doctoring.
we tried it?  when?  i thought private industry was influencing politics to their benefit. That's not really 'free market'...

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMMedicare is actually one of the few things that IS working.  Medicare allows doctors to do the doctoring, not the insurance companies who know fuckall about what procedures are needed and what meds are needed.
I was under the assumption that the unfunded liabilities of medicare were one of the great problems in our economic future.  if it is the case medicare will not be able to pay for what it claims responsibility for, then it is broken.  I was also under the assumption that a growing number of doctors are no longer accepting medicare.  is this not true?

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMPrivate practices and private hospitals are "treating and streeting" atm.  That's failure.  When the bottom line figures in more than a person's health, that's failure.  What's your life worth?  What's your kid's life worth?
More to you than you can pay, at this point.
I'm unfamiliar with the term 'treating and streeting' as far as the worth of my/my kid's life.... it will always be more than i can pay.  i'm not sure what you are getting at there....

Quote from: Squid on August 12, 2009, 06:50:15 PM
B) WHAT?? I work for a giant bank. A giant bank that gives not one or two shits about the little guy that works for them.
Self employed. Pffffsht. I WISH.
oh yeah, i fergot. i knew that.  so that sucks. is it industry standard for banks not to provide insurance (in whatever position you fill)? 

Quote from: Squid on August 12, 2009, 06:50:15 PM
C) You don't see healthcare as a right? So, if I get sick, I don't have the right to get treated and live? Thanks buddy.
No, man... you have the right to seek healthcare, obviously.  pursuit of life, liberty, and property, and all that.... you just don't have the right to make other people pay it involuntarily.  if you join some scheme that spreads the cost as evenly as possible on a voluntary basis, that's awesome.  but .gov is coercion. 

Quote from: Squid on August 12, 2009, 06:50:15 PM
Here's another rant from dear old Squid-

I have a friend who claims to be disabled because she got hooked on anti-psychotics and anti-depressants while in the midst of trying to get attention.
She gets social security checks every month (that I pay into) and free fucking healthcare.
She doesn't work. I repeat- SHE DOESN'T WORK! (bitch)

I work my ASS off, have the carpel tunnel and tendinitis to prove it (also a bad back and something with my connective tissue being fucked up as well as degenerative disease in my lower lumbar) and I have NO INSURANCE. I pay into medicaid, that I cannot has, bi-monthly.
Ya herd? I can't see a doctor to fix the problems caused by my job, while my friend sits on her stupid ass popping pills pretending to be crazy and doing NOTHING with no responsibilities.

Is that fair? Fuck off America.

"There's workman's comp if it was job related", Been there done that they did nothing for me except give me anti-inflamatories that made me puke in my pance.

I work hard. I work long hours, at night, sacrificing family time to give them a roof over their heads. I can't see a doctor??
You don't think I have the right?
What. You think insurance is a privilege? No, sir. I do not agree with you.
I think everyone has the right to live. And the right to live comfortably.

You indicate frustration that someone is mooching off a system that you are forced to pay into.  We are eye to eye on that one.  but you want to expand the system? i don't understand that.
privilege?  privi ledge.... private law....   no.  that's not what it should be.  but it is a product.  not a right.
everyone has the right to life.  your comfort is on you and fate/luck.  i don't think life is fair, and i think that trying to enforce fairness with (ultimately) the barrel of a gun, rather than through voluntary contract, is not the proper way to go about things...

Jenne

Quote from: Iptuous on August 12, 2009, 07:27:08 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PM
"Deny them your money"?  And then they bankrupt you.  To death.
:? explain...

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMCome on, dude.  Really?  You think that capitalism and the Free Market(tm) are going to work here?  That's a no-go show at this point in time.  We've tried it, it failed.  Period.  40m Americans sans health care, and the government is already picking up what tabs are to be had, when people can get the gumption up to get some doctoring.
we tried it?  when?  i thought private industry was influencing politics to their benefit. That's not really 'free market'...

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMMedicare is actually one of the few things that IS working.  Medicare allows doctors to do the doctoring, not the insurance companies who know fuckall about what procedures are needed and what meds are needed.
I was under the assumption that the unfunded liabilities of medicare were one of the great problems in our economic future.  if it is the case medicare will not be able to pay for what it claims responsibility for, then it is broken.  I was also under the assumption that a growing number of doctors are no longer accepting medicare.  is this not true?

Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:47:59 PMPrivate practices and private hospitals are "treating and streeting" atm.  That's failure.  When the bottom line figures in more than a person's health, that's failure.  What's your life worth?  What's your kid's life worth?
More to you than you can pay, at this point.
I'm unfamiliar with the term 'treating and streeting' as far as the worth of my/my kid's life.... it will always be more than i can pay.  i'm not sure what you are getting at there....


Medicare has its problems, but it's more reliable than most insurance or no insurance at all.  There's nothing more frustrating to a doctor than not being able to follow through with critical surgeries or procedures that can save a person's life or make their lives that much better because its coverage's been denied.  And who pays when the patient can't?  The doctor.  S/he goes unpaid until a settlement is reached.  Years later.

State programs are currently very broken.  But that's because big business broke the economy, which fed into the state coffers and broke the state budgets.  Perhaps that's what you are meaning.

You are never going to separate the government from the insurance companies when so many of the companies are run by former government bigwigs and vice versa.  Not to mention the powerful lobbyists that people pay lip service to getting rid of but no one ever really does.

As for treating and streeting--it's when folks who are in sometimes critical condition are triaged and then dumped back onto the streets.  Rather than being admitted.  Because they cannot pay.  This happens often, and most often to the poor.  It's a shocking state of affairs...and it will increase in scope if something isn't done and done soon.

Requia ☣

Medicaid and Medicare are only in financial trouble for the same reason the rest of the country is, healthcare costs have doubled in the last 10 years, and will likely double again if not checked, supposedly one of the key things Omaba is trying to do is put price controls on health care to prevent this, my inclination is to call him a liar, but the medical lobby seems to believe he'll do it.

I have never heard of a doctor that won't accept medicare, though I've been to one who was rejected by medicare (his services were primarily non vital, I was in to track down a digestive issue that turned out to be a food allergy).  There might be a few libertarian type ones who refuse to accept it on principle i suppose.  But in general people don't turn down money.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.