Ok, Republicans. We give up!!!

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

B) WHAT?? I work for a giant bank. A giant bank that gives not one or two shits about the little guy that works for them.
Self employed. Pffffsht. I WISH.

oh yeah, i fergot. i knew that.  so that sucks. is it industry standard for banks not to provide insurance (in whatever position you fill)? 

C) You don't see healthcare as a right? So, if I get sick, I don't have the right to get treated and live? Thanks buddy.

No, man... you have the right to seek healthcare, obviously.  pursuit of life, liberty, and property, and all that.... you just don't have the right to make other people pay it involuntarily.  if you join some scheme that spreads the cost as evenly as possible on a voluntary basis, that's awesome.  but .gov is coercion. 

Here's another rant from dear old Squid-

I have a friend who claims to be disabled because she got hooked on anti-psychotics and anti-depressants while in the midst of trying to get attention.
She gets social security checks every month (that I pay into) and free fucking healthcare.
She doesn't work. I repeat- SHE DOESN'T WORK! (bitch)

I work my ASS off, have the carpel tunnel and tendinitis to prove it (also a bad back and something with my connective tissue being fucked up as well as degenerative disease in my lower lumbar) and I have NO INSURANCE. I pay into medicaid, that I cannot has, bi-monthly.
Ya herd? I can't see a doctor to fix the problems caused by my job, while my friend sits on her stupid ass popping pills pretending to be crazy and doing NOTHING with no responsibilities.

Is that fair? Fuck off America.

"There's workman's comp if it was job related", Been there done that they did nothing for me except give me anti-inflamatories that made me puke in my pance.

I work hard. I work long hours, at night, sacrificing family time to give them a roof over their heads. I can't see a doctor??
You don't think I have the right?
What. You think insurance is a privilege? No, sir. I do not agree with you.
I think everyone has the right to live. And the right to live comfortably.

You indicate frustration that someone is mooching off a system that you are forced to pay into.  We are eye to eye on that one.  but you want to expand the system? i don't understand that.
privilege?  privi ledge.... private law....   no.  that's not what it should be.  but it is a product.  not a right.
everyone has the right to life.  your comfort is on you and fate/luck.  i don't think life is fair, and i think that trying to enforce fairness with (ultimately) the barrel of a gun, rather than through voluntary contract, is not the proper way to go about things...

First part- they provide it sure. I just can't afford it is all. You can has if you can pay. I cannot.

Second bolded- I don't want anyone to involuntarily pay anything. The people who'd be paying in on it are the people who'd have it. The more people you have on the system the cheaper it gets. I want that.

Last bit there, the frustration- I am forced to pay into it yes, in the hopes that when I retire I'll have this healthcare crap that I paid for in my youth. Also if something happens to me my family gets taken care of.
The expansion would be me paying into something I can use now. Instead of paying for my lazy friend to sit on her ass and be stupid (you know   I love her and all but fuck her)

I don't think life is fair either, but it can be a little more fair than what it is now. It just can.
Medicaid isn't exactly the best thing in the world. I watched a friend die of cancer cause they wouldn't give her basic chemo and they sent her to some hokey doctor that just made it worse. Watching someone you care about waste away because some piece of crap doctor had to use an "experimental" drug... it's shitty.
Why couldn't somebody just give her the damn treatment she needed??

This subject is touchy for me I guess.
I'm pissed that I'm fucked if I get sick, I'm pissed I had to watch a friend die and I'm pissed that another friend is just a lazy mooch and gets a free ride.

I don't want a free ride, man. I just want something I can afford.
Is that too damn much to ask??

And Jenne - a vigorous clap for your last post there.

[Jenne]

Man, Squid, I'm sorry to hear about that...   And thank you.  Dr. Mr. Jenne is great at answering this shit, and he can do it on a federal or state level.  Though his expertise lies primarily on the CA state system for kids.  But he's had to research it for his own fam, has worked in his dad's office since he got into the country (15 years old), and keeps tabs on this shit in general.

Health care reform, for better or for can't-truly-get-much-worse, needs to fucking happen NOW.

[Elder Iptuous]

Jenne,
that is all exactly how i understood it to be.
it seems that i am simply evil, because i believe that people should have the right to take the calculated risk of not having insurance, even if it means that they pay the consequences if they get run over by the wheel of fortune.  it sounds like that would bring down the burden on the system that is indirectly causing premiums to rise on those who do choose to have insurance,  allowing more to have it who currently can't afford it.
i'm positive that it is vastly more complicated than this simple description, and my simple response, but that is the conversation as i have had it a few times now.
to me, it boils down to people saying that our half assed socialized medical system is not working, so we need to go all the way with it, where i only see problems being caused by the socialized aspects themselves, with the 'solution' being to strip them away....

Squid,
I agree that sucks.
hard.
it seems weird that a major bank can't get a good rate on insurance... it's Wells Fargo, right?  that's big, man.  who do they offer through?
as far as paying in.... if the gov is offering benefits, everybody pays, no?  if they have liabilities and they can't meet them with the current cash coming in, they don't just go bankrupt.  the cost will be passed on to the public at large.  like Dr.Mr.Jenne said, costs are going up faster than anticipated.  i'm guessing that's not a trend that will go away... 
also, i want to stress the point that i'm not really evil.  i not trying to be a dick here, and i really can sympathize.  (i experienced a ~similar thing with a friend, too)  I would really like for you to be able to afford good health care.... i would like everyone to be able to afford fantastic health care...

[Jenne]

No ONE solution can solve it as it is.  That's very much the truth.  And like as not, any solution will create problems as it solves others.

Be that as it may...you either take the gun away and give a stick, or you just get the bullet.  Without benefit of armor.

My husband almost died 2 years ago of aplastic anemia.  If we hadn't HAD the insurance,

1) he'd probably be ok, but his care wouldn't have been as quick or as on-the-spot

2) we'd have lost our house, our payments are more than 1/4 of what he made/month back then

3) without the insurance to carry the bills, we'd be in hock and he'd have to probably take on a second job and I would also have to work 70+ hours/week instead of taking care of my kids and working from home

4) (the most important) HE'D NEVER GET ANY INSURANCE EVER AGAIN.  He now has what is known as the dreaded "pre-existing condition."

Now, we're in our 30's, and 2 years ago we were younger, fitter than we are now.  There are millions out there like us, making a lot less money, owning a lot fewer assets with a lot less education and much shittier careers.

I cannot fathom what their lives are like going through what we did, WITHOUT insurance.

There's no need for that.  Not for the richest country in the world, the bestest, the mostest Godlike in the universe!  Yes, I'm getting facetious here, sorry...but I think the point is:  it's fucked up to consider that THIS cannot be done or SHOULD not be done.

People shouldn't lose their livelihoods because they all of a sudden got in a trainwreck and had the (mis)fortune to survive it.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

Well ya know, if I ever do get really fucking sick, I hope I just die off quick so I don't become a giant financial burden on my family.

Fuck it.

I'll just use a .35 cent bullet and save everyone some hassle.

[Elder Iptuous]

4) (the most important) HE'D NEVER GET ANY INSURANCE EVER AGAIN.  He now has what is known as the dreaded "pre-existing condition."

yeah... this seems like a big wrinkle.
i'll just flop my ignorance out on the table here.
the problem here is that the insurance companies wont enter into a contract with you knowing that it's a bum deal for them. (I can't fault them there)  so you need to be in contract as soon as you can with as good a deal as you can.  but the contract is generally tied to your employer, so you're either stuck in place, or you're screwed.
is there anything else about that issue that i'm overlooking?

[Requia ☣]

Well ya know, if I ever do get really fucking sick, I hope I just die off quick so I don't become a giant financial burden on my family.

Fuck it.

I'll just use a .35 cent bullet and save everyone some hassle.

Do it right, spend the extra 15 cents for hollow point.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

Well ya know, if I ever do get really fucking sick, I hope I just die off quick so I don't become a giant financial burden on my family.

Fuck it.

I'll just use a .35 cent bullet and save everyone some hassle.

Do it right, spend the extra 15 cents for hollow point.

Oooh. Good call.

[Elder Iptuous]

that'll cost a bit more than .35 for the good ones....
i can offer an affordable coverage plan, though.

[Thurnez Isa]

This subject is touchy for me I guess.
I'm pissed that I'm fucked if I get sick, I'm pissed I had to watch a friend die and I'm pissed that another friend is just a lazy mooch and gets a free ride.

MOVE TO THUNDER BAY SQUIDDY

ahhhh...
.....
we got bears....
everyone like bears..

[Triple Zero]

it seems that i am simply evil, because i believe that people should have the right to take the calculated risk of not having insurance, even if it means that they pay the consequences if they get run over by the wheel of fortune.

well, you can say "should have the right to", you say that because of your freedom ideals, right? but apart from freedom there is one extra factor which you cannot ignore. well you can (you should have the right to), but it would reduce your whole idea to a pipe dream along the level of "wouldnt it be nice if everybody would just stop fighting so we can has world peace".

and that factor is, whether, given all these fucking monkeys on this fucking planet, it would actually work.

you see, let's say people have the right to voluntarily not have insurance. so a bunch of hardcore liberians like you choose to not have insurance and they feel all free and empowered and shit, and then some of them get sick, and some of them become handicapped and others die, but because they are such idealistic free motherfuckers they are all tough and stand to their principles and say "HAR *cough* but it was a *wheeze* calculated risk that I took, and I had the *groan* FREEDOM to take it!", and then they curl up and die as happy free men.

and that is fucking lovely, you know?

(I mean, if that's your thing)

unfortunately, there's also a bunch of fucking monkeys living on this planet. and they will voluntarily choose not to have insurance, not because of freedom, but because at that short-sighted point in their life it means they dont think they need it and dont wanna pay. and then they get sick, and they get no medical help. and then they whine and whine and whine because this is inhumane and you can't just let people die of an infected toenail just like that not in this America and they show up at the first aid, and they whine. and a few of the monkeys might say to them "yes but you took a calculated risk not to get insurance and these are the consequences" and turn away. but other monkeys, enough to make your entire plan fall to pieces, will help them. either because they think this is the "right thing to do", or because they can't stand to see other monkeys suffering like that, or because the sick monkeys trick them with complicated lies about "human rights" and such.

and in the end, even though people can freely choose to take a calculated risk and voluntarily choose not to pay insurance, everybody--except perhaps the hardcore freedom motherfuckers that turn their cold hard backs to any and all sick monkeys they see--ends up involuntarily paying for everybody else. except this time it's even worse, because because some monekys choose to be whining sick freeloaders, the distribution is not fair and the ones that shout loudest get a better deal than the quiet monkeys that just want the freedom to take a calculated risk and voluntarily choose to DO pay for insurance.

so yeah, I get your ideas, Ippy. and they seem sound at first, but then it turns out that, in order for your ideas to actually work out, first you need to get the monkeys on this planet to stop acting like monkeys.

well, if you happen to manage that, I got a whole lot of other ideas that also might work

however, calling yourself "evil" doesn't suddenly solve the monkey problem on this planet, IMO.

[Iason Ouabache]

Did you just call him a "liberian"? 

[LMNO]

What 000 said, but shorter:

If you choose not to have insurance and get hit by a car and fall into a coma, you're taking an ambulance to the hospital and getting treatment, no matter what.  After a few days your family might pull the plug on you, but the rest of us are still footing the bill until then, even though you didn't want us to.

So if you don't want socialization, then you need to come to their home after a 9-1-1 call, look for their insurance card, and if they don't have one, give them a cross and say, "Good luck" and be on your way down the road.

[Cainad (dec.)]

also, although i really don't know jack about the health care system,  i'd like to weigh in on the side of not wanting it run by the govt.  It seems that wanting this would require faith in the competence and benevolence of the govt., neither of which i possess.

I'm going to skip the rest of the no doubt thoughtful and interesting discussion that happened ITT and point out:

I got my wisdom teeth and my 8-inch-long appendix pulled out on the gubbamint's (read: YUOR) dime, and I think it's fucking awesome.

Now taking bets on whether or not a private insurance company would have denied my claim or given me shit about my appendectomy because having an abnormally long appendix was a pre-existing condition.

</inflammatory, ill-reasoned argument>

[LMNO]

I'm curious... in what way would a gvt run insurance plan be more incompetent than an HMO?

I know the standard line is, "the gvt wouldn't run it right," but no one give any details on what exactly they would fuck up.