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USA TODAY: Protests tilt views on health care bill

Started by Cainad (dec.), August 13, 2009, 01:27:08 PM

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Requia ☣

Quote from: Dimo1138 on August 13, 2009, 07:08:20 PM
See. Protesting does make a difference. Now, let's find something worth protesting so we can make progress.

Only when the protests get news coverage.  When the protests are completely ignored they appear to do nothing.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Cain

Quote from: LMNO on August 14, 2009, 03:06:16 AM
I would agree, except most of the shouting I've heard and read are the MORONIC LIES that are the talking points of the wackjob right. If they were frustrated and INFORMED, even if conservative, I'd agree with you. But it's mostly, if not entirely, fearmongering-- or the result of fearmongering.

You say that like an Obama death panel isn't really going to kill your grandmother.

Richter

Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 14, 2009, 04:27:44 AM
Quote from: Dimo1138 on August 13, 2009, 07:08:20 PM
See. Protesting does make a difference. Now, let's find something worth protesting so we can make progress.

Only when the protests get news coverage.  When the protests are completely ignored they appear to do nothing.

So you make sure your protesting actions get covered.
Welcome to terrorism.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Remington

Quote from: Dimo1138 on August 13, 2009, 07:23:25 PM
Whatever, let's protest to make things better, then. C'mon, let's do it.
I love Dimo. He's like a idealistic hippie in the midst of all the jaded, anarchistic PDers.
Is it plugged in?

Template

Quote from: Richter on August 14, 2009, 02:43:27 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 14, 2009, 04:27:44 AM
Quote from: Dimo1138 on August 13, 2009, 07:08:20 PM
See. Protesting does make a difference. Now, let's find something worth protesting so we can make progress.

Only when the protests get news coverage.  When the protests are completely ignored they appear to do nothing.

So you make sure your protesting actions get covered.
Welcome to terrorism.

Well, maybe today's the day we start running both sides of an argument IRL.  Establish a paramilitary-flavored presence in some town, drop in some protesters, deliver a mock fight (fake on the order of pro wrestling), and see what shows up on the news.

If it takes off, we can start taking on recruits, with or without explaining the two sides' true nature and function.

Cain

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/08/16/us/politics/AP-US-Health-Care-Overhaul.html?_r=2

QuoteWASHINGTON (AP) -- Bowing to Republican pressure and an uneasy public, President Barack Obama's administration signaled Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

Facing mounting opposition to the overhaul, administration officials left open the chance for a compromise with Republicans that would include health insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run plan. Such a concession probably would enrage Obama's liberal supporters but could deliver a much-needed victory on a top domestic priority opposed by GOP lawmakers.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama had wanted the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured, but didn't include it as one of his core principles of reform.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said that government alternative to private health insurance is ''not the essential element'' of the administration's health care overhaul. The White House would be open to co-ops, she said, a sign that Democrats want a compromise so they can declare a victory.

Under a proposal by Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., consumer-owned nonprofit cooperatives would sell insurance in competition with private industry, not unlike the way electric and agriculture co-ops operate, especially in rural states such as his own.

With $3 billion to $4 billion in initial support from the government, the co-ops would operate under a national structure with state affiliates, but independent of the government. They would be required to maintain the type of financial reserves that private companies are required to keep in case of unexpectedly high claims.

''I think there will be a competitor to private insurers,'' Sebelius said. ''That's really the essential part, is you don't turn over the whole new marketplace to private insurance companies and trust them to do the right thing.''

Obama's spokesman refused to say a public option was a make-or-break choice.

''What I am saying is the bottom line for this for the president is, what we have to have is choice and competition in the insurance market,'' White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Sunday.

A day before, Obama appeared to hedge his bets.

''All I'm saying is, though, that the public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform,'' Obama said at a town hall meeting in Grand Junction, Colo. ''This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it.''

It's hardly the same rhetoric Obama employed during a constant, personal campaign for legislation.

''I am pleased by the progress we're making on health care reform and still believe, as I've said before, that one of the best ways to bring down costs, provide more choices and assure quality is a public option that will force the insurance companies to compete and keep them honest,'' Obama said in July.

Lawmakers have discussed the co-op model for months although the Democratic leadership and the White House have said they prefer a government-run option.

Conrad, chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, called the argument for a government-run public plan little more than a ''wasted effort.'' He added there are enough votes in the Senate for a cooperative plan.

''It's not government-run and government-controlled,'' he said. ''It's membership-run and membership-controlled. But it does provide a nonprofit competitor for the for-profit insurance companies, and that's why it has appeal on both sides.''

Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., said Obama's team is making a political calculation and embracing the co-op alternative as ''a step away from the government takeover of the health care system'' that the GOP has pummeled.

''I don't know if it will do everything people want, but we ought to look at it. I think it's a far cry from the original proposals,'' he said.

Republicans say a public option would have unfair advantages that would drive private insurers out of business. Critics say co-ops would not be genuine public options for health insurance.

Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson, D-Texas, said it would be difficult to pass any legislation through the Democratic-controlled Congress without the promised public plan.

''We'll have the same number of people uninsured,'' she said. ''If the insurance companies wanted to insure these people now, they'd be insured.''

Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., said the Democrats' option would force individuals from their private plans to a government-run plan as some employers may choose not to provide health insurance.

''Tens of millions of individuals would be moved from their personal, private insurance to the government-run program. We simply don't think that's acceptable,'' he said.

A shift to a cooperative plan would certainly give some cover to fiscally conservative Blue Dog Democrats who are hardly cheering for the government-run plan.

''The reality is that it takes 60 percent to get this done in the Senate. It's probably going to have to be bipartisan in the Senate, which I think it should be,'' said Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., who added that the proposals still need changes before he can support them.

Obama, writing in Sunday's New York Times, said political maneuvers should be excluded from the debate.

''In the coming weeks, the cynics and the naysayers will continue to exploit fear and concerns for political gain,'' he wrote. ''But for all the scare tactics out there, what's truly scary -- truly risky -- is the prospect of doing nothing.''

Congress' proposals, however, seemed likely to strike end-of-life counseling sessions. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has called the session ''death panels,'' a label that has drawn rebuke from her fellow Republicans as well as Democrats.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, declined to criticize Palin's comments and said Obama wants to create a government-run panel to advise what types of care would be available to citizens.

''In all honesty, I don't want a bunch of nameless, faceless bureaucrats setting health care for my aged citizens in Utah,'' Hatch said.

Sebelius said the end-of-life proposal was likely to be dropped from the final bill.

''We wanted to make sure doctors were reimbursed for that very important consultation if family members chose to make it, and instead it's been turned into this scare tactic and probably will be off the table,'' she said.

Sebelius spoke on CNN's ''State of the Union'' and ABC's ''This Week.'' Gibbs appeared on CBS' ''Face the Nation.'' Conrad and Shelby appeared on ''Fox News Sunday.'' Johnson, Price and Ross spoke with ''State of the Union.'' Hatch was interviewed on ''This Week.''

MMIX

Americans - LOL

Because a healthcare industry run for private profit is bound to be superior

needs moar "death panels" just sayin'  :roll:
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Rumckle

I seem to have misplaced my balls.
                           \
It's not trolling, it's just satire.

Iason Ouabache

Quote from: Iason Ouabache on August 14, 2009, 04:10:45 AM
Good thing we have a representative government that isn't easily sway by the mob mentality, right guys?

Right??


:horrormirth:
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
    \
┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rumwolf on August 17, 2009, 10:57:19 AM
I seem to have misplaced my balls be a politician.
                           \


fixt.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cain

I think this quote sums it up for me:

QuoteAll the noise from the right about Obama being a not-so-crypto-socialist or communist or Marxist has had its desired effect: Obama now seems willing to drop the public option from his health care reform package. But everyone who always saw Obama for what he is—a dogged centrist who knows how to game the system—already knew that the public option would likely be off the table during the initial rounds of reform. Thoughtful folks knews that Obama would play politics—that he would float a plan far more ambitious than he could push through Congress—that his concessions would be scripted from the start, consisting of provisions that he knew to be untenable in the present political climate but which, after becoming familiar through repetition, would sound less extreme the next time they became fodder for public discussion.

Such are the dictates of his technocratic fancy.

What makes the conservative response to his policies particularly dumbfounding is that he's flashed his incrementalist credentials numerous times—most saliently in his treatment of the GLBT issues—and yet conservatives respond like he's always playing for the whole pot when, in fact, all his talk of high stakes is intended to distract them from the fact that he's penny-anteing them into poorhouse. In short, conservatives are giddy because they've "prevented" him from winning as big as he talks even though he's the only one leaving the table with anything in his wallet.

Tempted as I am to expand on all the apt metaphors here—deaths accomplished by a thousand cuts that produce ghosts who proudly crow about not being beheaded, or defeated generals bragging about transitory victories in a long war—but as conservatives have provided me (and Obama) with better material, I can cut to the chase. Consider what the conservative movement currently considers a win:


Conservatives lie about the existence of "death panels."
Liberals cave to public outcry and eliminate "death panels" that never existed from an inchoate version of the Senate's health care reform package.
Conservatives declare victory.

I remember playing similar games as a child. I would:

Pretend there were Imperial Storm Troopers in my closet, who I would
Defeat by dint of Force and flashlight, before
Declaring victory over the gathering forces of darkness.

The difference being, of course, that because there were no actual Storm Troopers in my closet, my imaginary victory entailed nobody else's actual defeat; whereas those who boast of victory over imaginary "death panels" have, in fact, suffered both tactical and rhetorical losses. Any provision short of a "death panel" that crops up in future iterations of health care reform will fail to rouse the ire of the conservative base to the boil it's at now. 

LMNO

I'd just like to point out that one of the features of the "death panel" aspect was that it was intended to provide free counseling in regards to Living Wills and estate planning. 

Of course, if you die without a will, or a Trust, or a survivorship life insurance policy, then the state gets half of everything you own.

Hmm... cui bono?

Cramulus

interesting Zanatos Gambit, Mr. Obama.

or so we should be led to believe

Requia ☣

Wrong kind of will, the death panels are for deciding how much effort you want the doctors putting in once you're no longer able to make your own decisions.  Grandma only dies (early) if she wanted to, or if she lets you decide and you choose to off her.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

AFK

And then we have this:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/18/poe-funeral-home/

QuoteRep. Ted Poe to hold health care town hall at funeral home.

Rep. Ted Poe (R-TX) has announced that he "will hold a health care town hall at Brookside Funeral Home on Saturday, Aug. 22 at 10 a.m." The awkward venue selection would seem to suggest that Poe may be interested in furthering the right-wing's false "death panels" talking point. Late last month, before Congress recessed for August, Poe delivered a speech on the House floor arguing that "when government runs health care, senior citizens are sometimes refused treatment because of their age." He continued his fear-mongering:

Government-run health care lets bureaucrats decide who receives rationed care and who doesn't, who lives and who just dies.

Why the hell is Obama even talking to these clowns? 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.