USA TODAY: Protests tilt views on health care bill

[Pariah]

And I'm sorry if this is repost, but the Barney Frank response to the "Obama = Hilter" strawman is hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

"on what planet do you spend most of your time"

"it is a tribute to the 1st Amendment that this kind of bile and nonsense is so freely propogated"

"trying to argue with you is like arguing with a dining room table"

to Frank, though he definitely is not interested in the engagement, I have to say, THANK YOU SIR FOR VOICING MY OPINION

Though, what do you expect from a badass like this?

[Jenne]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/health-care-explained-on_n_264529.html

THIS is pretty cool, too.

[LMNO]

So, with the death of Ted "Health Care" Kennedy, do you think the bill has a better chance of passing "in his honor," or does it fail even harder because he can't leverage his political power anymore?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, with the death of Ted "Health Care" Kennedy, do you think the bill has a better chance of passing "in his honor," or does it fail even harder because he can't leverage his political power anymore?

I think it died with him.

[LMNO]

Yeah.  Perhaps for the best.  I don't think he'd want his legacy to be, "and in his honor, we have passed a healthcare bill that was compromised to a point that nothing changed, no one was helped, and the status quo was maintained."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  Perhaps for the best.  I don't think he'd want his legacy to be, "and in his honor, we have passed a healthcare bill that was compromised to a point that nothing changed, no one was helped, and the status quo was maintained pharmacy companies made out like fucking BANDITS."

Fixed.

[AFK]

So, with the death of Ted "Health Care" Kennedy, do you think the bill has a better chance of passing "in his honor," or does it fail even harder because he can't leverage his political power anymore?

All of a sudden, Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins have become even more powerful in the Senate.  They are going to be wined and dined like no tomorrow.  In the end, I think it will all depend on how much they fear being roasted by the rest of their party should they sign on to support whatever the final bill looks like.  I can see Snowe, maybe, supporting a Public Option, but it would be a pretty weak one I think.  I don't think Collins would go for it, she's a bit more Conservative than Snowe.  But she might go for the co-op idea. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, with the death of Ted "Health Care" Kennedy, do you think the bill has a better chance of passing "in his honor," or does it fail even harder because he can't leverage his political power anymore?

All of a sudden, Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins have become even more powerful in the Senate.  They are going to be wined and dined like no tomorrow.  In the end, I think it will all depend on how much they fear being roasted by the rest of their party should they sign on to support whatever the final bill looks like.  I can see Snowe, maybe, supporting a Public Option, but it would be a pretty weak one I think.  I don't think Collins would go for it, she's a bit more Conservative than Snowe.  But she might go for the co-op idea. 

Snowe has never given a damn what the GOP thinks, as she's from Maine, and they don't listen to outsiders anyway.

[Jenne]

The more I read into the co-op idea, the more I think it's bullslhit.  And I'm really pissed this public option is basically just way off the table.  They should just have never bothered if they were never going to stick to it.  Public option is the only way the middle class can get health care if they lose their damned jobs (like the situation we have now).

[LMNO]

I am veering further and further into the Cain camp of "Heath Care should not be a capitalist market good."

At least I think that's one of his stances.  Apologies if I fucked up the point/nuances.


Anyway, it's the idea that it costs money to treat injured people, so if you want to make money of the heath care industry, it makes sense to charge high insurance rates and then deny as much coverage as you can... "Higher costs, fewer patients".

That doesn't make sense as it goes against the point of health care, so it shouldn't be treated as a capitalist market.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I am veering further and further into the Cain camp of "Heath Care should not be a capitalist market good."

At least I think that's one of his stances.  Apologies if I fucked up the point/nuances.


Anyway, it's the idea that it costs money to treat injured people, so if you want to make money of the heath care industry, it makes sense to charge high insurance rates and then deny as much coverage as you can... "Higher costs, fewer patients".

That doesn't make sense as it goes against the point of health care, so it shouldn't be treated as a capitalist market.

I've always believed this, too.  Better a faceless bureaucracy that doesn't care, than a faceless bureaucracy with stock options to consider.

[Cain]

Thats pretty much my stance, although I believe the French system is a mixed public and private one, and not only is it the best in the world in terms of treatment, its also covers 99.9% of French citizens.  That would probably be easier to sell in the USA, with its partial market approach.

I'm not really dogmatic about it, I'm "whatever works well, covers as many people as possible and doesn't bankrupt the state".  Well, the last one isn't a massive concern.  The NHS works well, but so do a few other models, including the Canadian and German ones.

[Jenne]

Thats pretty much my stance, although I believe the French system is a mixed public and private one, and not only is it the best in the world in terms of treatment, its also covers 99.9% of French citizens.  That would probably be easier to sell in the USA, with its partial market approach.

I'm not really dogmatic about it, I'm "whatever works well, covers as many people as possible and doesn't bankrupt the state".  Well, the last one isn't a massive concern.  The NHS works well, but so do a few other models, including the Canadian and German ones.

The German one is a little scary...they hold people in their hospitals longer than is usually warranted so the state doesn't get sued or something to that effect.  I'll have to ask the German doc that works for/with my husband in his peds clinic, but from what I gather, OVERtreatment rather than under is the name of the day in Germany.

I agree that the French system is the best in terms of mixture of private/publc (or just because of it, anyway).   I've seen it firsthand in the 90's and it was incredible.  I just wish less of Amurrica had its collective head up its ass and could see the forest for the trees when it comes to health care.  But unless they are stuck paying $$$$ in bills, they don't seem to "get it"...

[Cain]

I don't really know much about the German system, except when I was over there with some friends, one hurt himself (falling out of a tree while drunk, IIRC) and he got treated quickly and well, and that the Germans I knew seemed to think it was pretty good.  But there are still a lot of options to consider, yeah.  As far as I can tell, the wingnuts think these are the only options:

Anarchotopia model -> Current US system -> Evil British Socialist Granny killing system -> Nazi-communist retard killing system

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The health care debate killed what Libertarian bits were left in my brain. The Market has failed utterly to provide a needed service. The service they do provide gives the consumer no choices and in the end, they put their profit literally above the welfare of their customers. If we must have a government, it might as well be a Liberal one.

I'll still tell it to fuck off when it gets between me and something I want to do, but for the spags that need/want government... a Liberal one seems far better than anything currently available in a conservative/libertarian style.