Skeptics and dismissiveness.

[Elder Iptuous]

What if they didn't really know what the placebo effect means?  Then it would still be the regular belief-based placebo effect.  Eh?  Eh?

some of what i read in looking that up makes me wonder where the patients really are on the spectrum of belief.  for instance, one of the prescription brand name placebos is called Obecalp.....  seriously, if you know what a placebo is, i would think, even if you didn't in full awareness catch what the name was, there would be some little homonculus in your head screaming 'its a fake, buddy!'.....
also, there were examples in that article where the patient was told it's a sugar pill, asked if they knew what that means, explained to that they don't understand why it works, and then it still does....
they also point out that the size of the treatment makes a difference. a big sugar pill works better than a small sugar pill.  a shot works better than a big sugar pill. an iv works even better. and fake surgery better yet....
i wonder if there has been a study regarding whether there is better results from surgery when there is religious pomp and ritual present at the time?

[LMNO]

Faith healing/psychic surgery, anyone?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

psychic surgery, anyone?

Goddammit, my mother believes in that shit.  And she should know better, she's a trained fucking scientist.  Then, when she's shown how the fraud is done, she says "Well, yes, but not ALL of them are frauds".

You ever wonder who gets taken in by these assholes?  I don't.

[Elder Iptuous]

the distinction between fraud and genuine treatment with placebo isn't totally unambiguous, though.  obviously the quacks in 3rd world countries that make a killing by treating peoples cancers by palming chicken livers are scumbuckets, but the article i posted with its example of the placebo surgery for knee arthritis is not quite the same, right?

[Kai]

What if they didn't really know what the placebo effect means?  Then it would still be the regular belief-based placebo effect.  Eh?  Eh?

some of what i read in looking that up makes me wonder where the patients really are on the spectrum of belief.  for instance, one of the prescription brand name placebos is called Obecalp.....  seriously, if you know what a placebo is, i would think, even if you didn't in full awareness catch what the name was, there would be some little homonculus in your head screaming 'its a fake, buddy!'.....
also, there were examples in that article where the patient was told it's a sugar pill, asked if they knew what that means, explained to that they don't understand why it works, and then it still does....
they also point out that the size of the treatment makes a difference. a big sugar pill works better than a small sugar pill.  a shot works better than a big sugar pill. an iv works even better. and fake surgery better yet....
i wonder if there has been a study regarding whether there is better results from surgery when there is religious pomp and ritual present at the time?

I've heard that patients who believe people praying for them will get god's help actually end up WORSE from surgery, because they're less careful.

[Jenne]

i wonder if there has been a study regarding whether there is better results from surgery when there is religious pomp and ritual present at the time?

Actually, there was a study about the effectiveness of prayer...is that close enough?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Kai about beat me to it up there, but the synopsis is the first couple of sentences in the article: 

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

[Elder Iptuous]

hmm....
if this is, in fact, the case, why the discrepancy?
what's the difference?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

hmm....
if this is, in fact, the case, why the discrepancy?
what's the difference?

NEVER FUCKING PRAY.

You don't know what is listening.

[Jenne]

 

Shit...I gotta quote you on that one, Rog.

[Jenne]

hmm....
if this is, in fact, the case, why the discrepancy?
what's the difference?

Do you mean the discrepancy in placebo effect vs. the "power" of prayer?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, the placebo medication means that the individual is engaged in a daily (or multiple times daily) ritual. They are performing Action... repetitively. The other poor schmucks with the prayer are having someone else do the work and just waiting for the results...

maybe...

[Jenne]

They put it down to "performance anxiety" in the article..."If they are praying for me, why aren't I getting better?"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

They put it down to "performance anxiety" in the article...

Don't worry Jesus, it happens to everyone sometimes... It's not your fault.

[Jenne]

They put it down to "performance anxiety" in the article...

Don't worry Jesus, it happens to everyone sometimes... It's not your fault.

More like:  Jesus Hates Me--I'm Not Well in 24 Hours or Less

[Elder Iptuous]

hmm....
if this is, in fact, the case, why the discrepancy?
what's the difference?

NEVER FUCKING PRAY.

You don't know what is listening.

i actually had a dream about just this a few nights ago:

begin dream description/
i was helping some way-too-drunk guy walk down the street of my neighborhood to get him to my house to safety.  it was particularly difficult because he was stumbling drunk, it was dark night, and its on a particularly steep hill in my neighborhood.  i looked up to the sky and prayed for help.  as i am a pantheist, my prayers are just, sort-of, generalized things to the universe as a whole. (which is odd, now that i think about it, since i direct them 'up' when thats silly in the context....) next thing i know, theres a fuckin UFO that lands behind me.  (oddly it was made out of brick and was about the size of a McMansion type house)  The luminous grey alien that steps out indicates that he's here to answer my call for help like he's the fucking AAA.  i excitedly wave him off with what i figure must be a universal 'my bad' look on my face.  he seemed annoyed as he left....  i dragged the drunk guys ass to the house by myself after that....
/dream description