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ANARCHISM: The Thread!

Started by Rococo Modem Basilisk, September 17, 2009, 12:30:11 AM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 18, 2009, 08:00:04 PM


I thought Holy men didn't think?  :wink:

We don't.  I was channeling Benjamin Franklin.

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 18, 2009, 08:00:04 PM
Even if you believe that "sometimes" the government has a moral right to tell you what to do... it still falls within the position of Rational Anarchy. As soon as you recognize that you the individual, MUST decide for themselves if they Will or Will Not obey a law (and that Not obeying a law, isn't necessarily bad/wrong... but there may be consequences) you have stepped into the kidde pool of rational anarchism.

So, basically, you just made up a new word for Jeffersonianism.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

Except liberals were around 200 years before "rational anarchism" was ever written about, talking about the divide between private and public life.  Or are you now claiming all philosophies which include a limit on government actions are now rational anarchism?  Because that is one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard.

Rococo Modem Basilisk

The gradiation of association of morality with government is, imo, not meaningful to the argument. You do things, or you don't do things; I'm not arguing from the point of view of whether or not you regret things after you have done them.

I'm not claiming that government doesn't exist. I am claiming that government is a name given to one of a number of groups, all of whom try to get people to do things by rewarding or punishing them, and that it doesn't particularly matter whether or not you apply the term 'government' to it, because the carrot/stick treatment is the carrot/stick treatment regardless of its source.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on September 18, 2009, 08:03:03 PM
I'm not claiming that government doesn't exist.

That was your first mistake.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on September 18, 2009, 08:02:03 PM
Except liberals were around 200 years before "rational anarchism" was ever written about, talking about the divide between private and public life.  Or are you now claiming all philosophies which include a limit on government actions are now rational anarchism?  Because that is one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard.

I am confused.  I thought Rat was past college age.

I mean, Enki has an excuse.  His balls haven't dropped yet.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Cain on September 18, 2009, 07:59:12 PM
According to Ratatok's potted history of political thought there, liberalism, socialism, communism and various forms of constitutionalism apparently do not exist.

Not at all. Rational Anarchism lies at a layer below all of those. Those are all social systems. Rational Anarchy is an personal system which can underlie any particular system of social organization.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 18, 2009, 08:01:43 PM


So, basically, you just made up a new word for Jeffersonianism.


No, Jeffersonianism like Libertarianism is about the social group, what the government can and cannot do... Rational Anarchism is individual... what the individual will and will not do, regardless of the government in place.

Personally, I would like to see the US run under a liberal government, where the fed supplies health care options, public schools, roads etc. However, I will still determine for myself if I will or will not follow the laws in place. Its not about governments role in society, as much as its about governments role in the individuals decisions.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I'd argue that the distinction between a government and a mafia is arbitrary. Somalia isn't in 'pure' anarchy -- it's just that its government thinks it's a mob and its mob thinks it's a government.

That said, all societies are examples of 'rational' anarchy, because the individual still decides whether or not to follow laws. I'm going to behave much differently in a facist society than I am in a libertarian one, but I still decide how I will behave.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Cain

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 18, 2009, 08:05:44 PM
Not at all. Rational Anarchism lies at a layer below all of those. Those are all social systems. Rational Anarchy is an personal system which can underlie any particular system of social organization.

A personal system isn't a political philosophy.  I see what you are saying now, but using political terms to define a personal ethos, for want of a better word, is bad appropriation, and leads to confusion among the levels of analysis, namely the individual/social levels.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 18, 2009, 08:05:44 PM
No, Jeffersonianism like Libertarianism is about the social group, what the government can and cannot do...

Have you ever read any of Jefferson's writings?  Or are you implying that Jefferson and Madison were in fact the same person?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on September 18, 2009, 08:08:33 PM
I'd argue that the distinction between a government and a mafia is arbitrary. Somalia isn't in 'pure' anarchy -- it's just that its government thinks it's a mob and its mob thinks it's a government.

That said, all societies are examples of 'rational' anarchy, because the individual still decides whether or not to follow laws. I'm going to behave much differently in a facist society than I am in a libertarian one, but I still decide how I will behave.

So, you just slapped a new meaning on a word, and then tried to pass it off.

Thanks for your time.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Rococo Modem Basilisk



I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

fomenter

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on September 18, 2009, 08:08:33 PM
I'd argue that the distinction between a government and a mafia is arbitrary. Somalia isn't in 'pure' anarchy -- it's just that its government thinks it's a mob and its mob thinks it's a government.

That said, all societies are examples of 'rational' anarchy, because the individual still decides whether or not to follow laws. I'm going to behave much differently in a facist society than I am in a libertarian one, but I still decide how I will behave.

all society's aren't rational anarchy, all individuals are unless they believe the
QuoteEither an individual believes that the government has a moral right to tell them what to do in all aspects of their life,
theory mentioned by rat.. try to keep up enki

cains point that rational anarchy is a  personal system ( there should be a better description) is right and i think  that is part of the tenets of rational anarchy they admit it is about how individuals relate to government not about a political philosophy

i think enki has the levels mixed

"So she says to me, do you wanna be a BAD boy? And I say YEAH baby YEAH! Surf's up space ponies! I'm makin' gravy... Without the lumps. HAAA-ha-ha-ha!"


hmroogp

Cain

Yeah, Fomenter puts it pretty succintly.

It happens a fair bit.  I know in IR classes, we had it drilled into our heads to pay attention to certain levels of analysis (usually individual, "unit-level", state level and "system level" which encompasses the entire international system.  Sociologists have a few more, but I tend to work from individual to sub-social to social to state to regional to system, usually with a few units thrown in at each level).  Alot of confusion in certain theoretical texts came from either people reading them and misunderstanding the different levels of analysis, or the author themselves confusing the levels of analysis.

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I recognize the difference between the levels. I just am not sure why the government level needs to be considered since everything operates just fine from the individual level.

It might make more sense to consider cultures rather than governments, since for the most part a society will systemize cultural rules as law, and may ignore those laws that conflict with their culture, in which context culture matters more than government.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.