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Note: the Council on Foreign Relations is like the special ed class...

Started by Cain, September 23, 2009, 10:24:40 PM

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Cain

...of the IR world.  Example one, from the former Chariman of the CFR, Les Gelb:

QuoteEven though I strongly believe that the United States does not have vital interests in Afghanistan, I also believe that Mr. Obama can't simply walk away from the war. A lot of Democrats don't seem to fathom this. At a minimum, the president has got to give Afghan allies a fighting chance to hold their own and prepare the ground to blunt the Taliban and al Qaeda. That will take time.

Got that?  The USA does not have a vital interest in Afghanistan, so American troops should just keep dying over there for an unspecified amount of time.  What do you mean "where is the logic"?  THIS!  IS!  FOREIGN POLICY!

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2009, 10:24:40 PM
...of the IR world.  Example one, from the former Chariman of the CFR, Les Gelb:

QuoteEven though I strongly believe that the United States does not have vital interests in Afghanistan, I also believe that Mr. Obama can't simply walk away from the war. A lot of Democrats don't seem to fathom this. At a minimum, the president has got to give Afghan allies a fighting chance to hold their own and prepare the ground to blunt the Taliban and al Qaeda. That will take time.

Got that?  The USA does not have a vital interest in Afghanistan, so American troops should just keep dying over there for an unspecified amount of time.  What do you mean "where is the logic"?  THIS!  IS!  FOREIGN POLICY!

I love this shit.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Kai

even though there is no vital interest, they must pretend to "follow through" so that the american people don't call them on not following through.

It's like Vietnam all over again.
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Jenne

NO, like John Oliver said, it's the ultimate video game, and the US gets to put its name in the top spot if we win.  Ultimate challenge, ultimate winner!  Over an unconquerable people living in an unconquerable land!  Huzzah!  God Bless America, Pass the Ammunition.

*falls over larfing*

Cain

Afghanistan isn't unconquerable.  It just seems to lure empires with pre-existing strategic and economic deficiencies, as they are already on the down curve, for the past two centuries. 

Jenne

Well, the track record isn't too great...

Ghengis Khan
Alexander the Great
USSR
and now
the USandA...

maybe it's the timing, as you say...but damn if it's just not a place for aging empires to make their last stands.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Jenne on September 24, 2009, 05:42:53 PM
Well, the track record isn't too great...

Ghengis Khan
Alexander the Great
USSR
and now
the USandA...

maybe it's the timing, as you say...but damn if it's just not a place for aging empires to make their last stands.


Think of it as tradition.  Or one of those elephant burial grounds.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

wat

Genghis Khan conquered Afghanistan with ease.  It was part of the Persian/Turkic Khwarezmian Empire.  Sure, Jalal Al-Din made a better show of resistance than some, but it didn't matter, he got broken and beaten back into modern day India.  If not for the Egyptian mamluk victories, the Mongols no doubt would've held onto the region for a very long time.  Their victory there was so complete, it was what gave the Mongols a reputation for utter ruthlessness and crushing military expertise.

Jenne

Really?  Hm...my memory of it is that he wasn't able to obliterate the region thoroughly and was routed from there after only a short time.  I need to find that resource.  Khan was a guy who liked to kill every man, woman, child, pet, you name it.  He was unable to do that.  The Afghans supposedly hung out in the hills and sent the Khan clans packing, whatever ones weren't already part of their tribal system.

Jenne

...of course, I could be remembering one particular battle rather than the whole region...when I read all of this stuff it was shit...12 years ago?  Or more?  So my memory's certainly quite fuzzy.  There's a great book on the military history of Afghanistan that I used for my MA thesis.  But damn if I can't tap into what it's called...

Cain

Jalal Al-Din lead some troops into Afghanistan, and inflicted a pretty bad defeat on a Mongol commander.  But then the Khan himself came down and killed every living thing, like he does, and not a peep was heard out of the region until the Mongols were fighting against each other again.

Even so, before that they were living under the heel of Iranians and Turks, so either way, they were definitely conquered.  I could probably find several other periods when they were subsumed by a larger power too. 

Jenne

THAT must've been it--I know the place was divided for some time under one faction and the other--must've been the Mongols and the Indians...?  Ugh.  I need to bone up on that, my memory's really lost it there.  Wasn't it the Mongols who wanted them to stop practicing Islam as well?

I know that Afghanistan was invaded several times by many different rulers--Ashoka, Maurya(sp?), etc.  None seemed able to unify the place under one ruler, though.  Until the late 18th century/early 18th century?  Is that right?  Ugh.  I should go google.

Iason Ouabache

You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
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