the math poll

[Kai]

Math "is" an abstracted system that was invented to approximate certain aspects of reality. It usually does a fairly good job, but it is still an imposed pattern laid across Reality.

Pi "is" 3.14 in base 10. And ONLY in base 10. 

In base 13, Pi "is" 3.1AC1049052A2C7.

So then what's the ratio between the square of the radius of a circle and the area enclosed by the circle?

A mathematical expression of the relationship between the two.

[LMNO]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.

[Kai]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.
[/quote

ALL CONCEPTS ARE ARTIFICIAL!

[/postmodernist]

[Golden Applesauce]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.

I thought you were trying to say that pi doesn't really exist because it has a decimal notation approximation and a base-13 approximation.

[MMIX]

I just want to know who thinks it is "a little bit of both" and have them try to explain how that would work, because trying to think about the ramifications of that position it is making my head 'splodey . . .

[LMNO]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.

I thought you were trying to say that pi doesn't really exist because it has a decimal notation approximation and a base-13 approximation.

maybe I'm saying a lot of things. Maybe I'm also saying that there is no place you can point to that equals "pi". Eventually, you have to approximate. Pi is a metaphor for a relationship that only exists in the framework of a created language. 

[MMIX]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.

I thought you were trying to say that pi doesn't really exist because it has a decimal notation approximation and a base-13 approximation.

maybe I'm saying a lot of things. Maybe I'm also saying that there is no place you can point to that equals "pi". Eventually, you have to approximate. Pi is a metaphor for a relationship that only exists in the framework of a created language. 

Agreed, though I'm not convinced that it is completely accurate to define pi as being a metaphor - it seems to me that it is better to identify it as a genuine measurement - the issue lies in the very existence of Numbers and not in the ways in which we manipulate them, pi was calculated based on the mathematical framework which devolved from the creation of the concept of Number. Also something that has been niggling me since further up the thread is that IF mathematics is the language of the universe don't you think that its a bit weird that the universe only speaks to humans . . .

[Captain Utopia]

Agreed, though I'm not convinced that it is completely accurate to define pi as being a metaphor - it seems to me that it is better to identify it as a genuine measurement - the issue lies in the very existence of Numbers and not in the ways in which we manipulate them, pi was calculated based on the mathematical framework which devolved from the creation of the concept of Number. Also something that has been niggling me since further up the thread is that IF mathematics is the language of the universe don't you think that its a bit weird that the universe only speaks to humans . . .

But, you can't calculate PI. Name one thing it is a genuine measurement of.

Mathematics is the language of the universe to humans in the same way that the highway code is the language of the road to an ant.

[LMNO]

But no one here said it was the language of the universe. The post in question was talking about "they say".
Math isn't the language of the universe. Math is the language we use to describe the universe. 

[Captain Utopia]

But no one here said it was the language of the universe. The post in question was talking about "they say".
Math isn't the language of the universe. Math is the language we use to describe the universe. 

I agree, and I was agreeing. I guess that wasn't immediately clear. Or expected.

[Fractalbeard]

Math is most certainly a constructed, invented thing. However, within that construct, there is much to discover. For example, Pi the number can be considered an invention. On the other hand, the fact that there is a relationship between the radius and circumference/area of a circle is something discoverable within the construct of math. In fact, that it is equal to (or approximated by) 3.14... in base 10 may be discoverable. Our construction of base 10 once again lies within invented.

[MMIX]

But, you can't calculate PI. Name one thing it is a genuine measurement of.

But I don't NEED to calculate pi . . . its already been done:-

In the twentieth century there have been two important developments: 
the invention of electronic computers and the discovery of much more
powerful formulas for pi. For example, in 1910 the great Indian
mathematician Ramanujan discovered a formula that in 1985 was used to
compute pi to 17 million digits.

Other even better methods have been developed since, and computers are
getting ever more powerful. The current record is about 51 billion
decimal places.

-Doctor Wilkinson,  The Math Forum

Therefore the answer to your second point is that the search for the ultimate pi is a genuine measure of the obsessive nature of the mathematical fraternity and their desperate need to get out of their mothers' basements . . .

Mathematics is the language of the universe to humans in the same way that the highway code is the language of the road to an ant.

This could be taken in at least two ways
1] Maths rolls over people like trucks roll over ants - possibly my favourite as maths = not my fave
OR
2]When I said universal language I was jiving off the "belief" [yep, notice them scare quotes] that there is an underlying mathematical "reality" which can be accessed and shared across human linguistic barriers and potentially alien species boundaries. I'm not at all convinced that mathematics is universal in that sense - though re-reading my post I don't think I was sufficiently clear on that point

[Golden Applesauce]

That concept does not exist in nature. It is an artifical concept that is only possible within the stucture of the system we created.

I thought you were trying to say that pi doesn't really exist because it has a decimal notation approximation and a base-13 approximation.

maybe I'm saying a lot of things. Maybe I'm also saying that there is no place you can point to that equals "pi". Eventually, you have to approximate. Pi is a metaphor for a relationship that only exists in the framework of a created language.  

Name one thing it is a genuine measurement of..

I WILL KILL A MOTHERFUCKER

There are plenty of things that are exactly equal to pi.  Pi is one-half the period of the sine and cosine functions, for starters.  It shows up in integrals, derivatives, and differential equations all the time as well, e.g.,

There are also a ton of infinite series and continued fractions that converge to pi - Euler found a lot of really cool ones.

Pi isn't a metaphor for a relationship - pi is the relationship.  Decimal approximations are an approximation; pi itself is not.

[Requia ☣]

Pi is one-half the period of the sine and cosine functions, for starters.

The period of a sine or cosine function is based on the percentage of a circle traveled.  pi related because pi is 1/4th of the circumference of a circle of radius one *by definition*.  (even then its kindof artificial, I can use 90 degrees instead of pi just as easily)

You can get pi out of the other equation you described because thats also related to a circle.

[Triple Zero]

I just want to mention that the perfect circle does not exist. In order to calculate the ratio of a circle as wide as the currently visible universe, accurate to the proton, you only need Pi up to the 52nd decimal.

So, no I don't really understand what those Japanese in the pi decimal memorization contests were about, either.