Justice

[LMNO]

Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

Wait a second... That's kind of defeatist.  It seems to imply that not only are people like us (well, some of us) constantly at odds and in cognitive dissonance with out "true selves", but that also, we can never win.

I usually think of Monkey Mind as the "default setting" but we can take the controls back if we pay attention to what's going on.

[LMNO]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

No, I think Jake needed to be screamed at.  It's the only language he'd understand in that situation.

Protecting the weaker members of society is not an undesirable thing.  Unless you're a libertarian, of course.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

Wait a second... That's kind of defeatist.  It seems to imply that not only are people like us (well, some of us) constantly at odds and in cognitive dissonance with out "true selves", but that also, we can never win.

I usually think of Monkey Mind as the "default setting" but we can take the controls back if we pay attention to what's going on.

I disagree.  I think the monkey mind has good qualities as well as bad.

But even if you're acting in "good monkey" mode, you're still a monkey.  Our "true selves" ARE primates.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

Hell i was thinking more along the lines of a smack upside the head and a WTF is wrong with you you fucking idiot?" But you don't have to scream to do that yanno?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

Hell i was thinking more along the lines of a smack upside the head and a WTF is wrong with you you fucking idiot?" But you don't have to scream to do that yanno?

When the rock hits you, holler.

[The Wizard]

The problem is that I might have made it worse by doing something. Mikey was just ignoring them, which while it works well, also doesn't change the situation. When I yelled at Jake though, I upset the situation. My interaction with the scene threw a ton of new variables into it. Screaming at Jake might have resulted in Mikey getting his ass kicked the next day, which it didn't. Also, by essentially rescuing Mikey, I might have put it into his head that I'll do that next time and every time after that. That doesn't help him either.

While I'm not sure I made the wrong decision, I definitely did not make the smart decision. I made a gamble, and if it had gone wrong, then it wouldn't be me who suffers for it. It's a puzzle.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The problem is that I might have made it worse by doing something. Mikey was just ignoring them, which while it works well, also doesn't change the situation. When I yelled at Jake though, I upset the situation. My interaction with the scene threw a ton of new variables into it. Screaming at Jake might have resulted in Mikey getting his ass kicked the next day, which it didn't. Also, by essentially rescuing Mikey, I might have put it into his head that I'll do that next time and every time after that. That doesn't help him either.

While I'm not sure I made the wrong decision, I definitely did not make the smart decision. I made a gamble, and if it had gone wrong, then it wouldn't be me who suffers for it. It's a puzzle.

I think you did the right thing.  But I think you need to follow up with Jake in a more reasonable, calm fashion.

[The Wizard]

Probably. I tore him down in a harsh fashion, now I have to build him back up sans some of  the asshole parts.

[Triple Zero]

note: I wrote half of this post a couple of hours ago, then I got distracted and forgot about it, and I just found this tab still open, so it's a bit stale maybe:

My take: Justice is when Wrongs are Righted.

That reduces the problem to the question what is Wrong and what is Right, which is the field of Ethics in philosophy, about which a shitload of books have been written but no real consensus has been reached (utilitarianism seems to work pretty well, but sometimes also not, or it's just hard). Anyway, I refer you to that. If you got a good professor, that illustrates the theories with interesting examples (which happen to be the only bits of philosophy that you ever hear about btw), it's some really interesting stuff. Maybe you won't learn what is Right and Wrong, but you will learn about nearly every ethical system people have come up with and how to poke holes in it! And the next best thing after knowing the correct answer, is of course to know why everybody else's answer is wrong

In addition, if you search in TFYS, Cain started a good thread about "virtue ethics" -- and then I got distracted and didn't finish the post until I came back to this tab a few hours later.

I brought up the virtue ethics (I hope I remembered the name right) because it appears to be a system for determining norms and values that in a lot of ways resonates with Discordian ideas about right and wrong, at least the way they're presented by many/some people on this board.

and just because I'm nice I looked up the thread for ya: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14216.0 [however I'm not sure how related it is to the topic]

----------

in addition to that I wanted to say I loved that little discussion between LMNO and TGRR on the previous page. it's a conundrum I've been switching back and forth upon when pondering on ethics in a Discordian light. As it stands right now, I think Roger is right, but on the other hand I believe and act more according to the view described by LMNO.

it's not very cognitively consonant.

[The Wizard]

Thanks for the link, Triple. And ya, I've been enjoying the debate a lot myself. Few things are more satisfying than a thread being host to great conversation.

[Golden Applesauce]

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

What I read into you comment was that you saw only two fundamental paths for a person; either a victim or a victimizer.  I posit that one can become neither, a person who is neither victimized nor victimizes others.

[Kai]

I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong righted", zero. The essence of a wrong is an immoral action. You can't change the past so you can't possibly make the immoral action into a moral action. Nor will making a moral action somehow balance out the previous immoral action and make everything aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll better. Not to mention that the usual stance of justice as a wrong righted is taking a generally thought to be immoral action and deeming it to be moral when used against a certain entity. This is not more than closure in the form of vengeance.

I mean, its perfectly fine if you want to believe in justice but it shouldn't be made out as something moral or /noble/. Just more monkeys shitting on each other.