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So, the economist and time agree: It's about fucking time to LEGALISE IT

Started by Lies, November 15, 2009, 06:13:22 AM

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East Coast Hustle

RWHN, let me ask you a question.

If marijuana suddenly ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think that the kids who have these problems would suddenly stop having these problems that cause them to turn to drugs? Or would they just find another drug? (as you undoubtedly know, many of the kids in Maine are already doing just that by skipping weed and going straight to OxyContin)

And operating under the premise that these kids with these problems will find SOME drug to try to fill whatever emotional hole is inside them, how does it make any sense to blame a particular substance when the substance is obviously a symptom of the problem and not the cause?

and given that if marijuana suddenly disappearing from the face of the earth wouldn't keep these kids from doing drugs and fucking up their lives, how do you reasonably come to the conclusion that if marijuana were legal for adults and regulated like alcohol and tobacco (I would lean towards regulating it like alcohol but that's another conversation) that kids without these problems would suddenly decide to fuck their lives up too?

It seems to me that you are placing the blame for the problem on the symptom and not the cause. The problem is children with inadequate parents, emotional trauma, mental health issues, etc. That's not going to go away because of drugs and drugs aren't causing those problems, they're simply exacerbating them in cases where those problems are already present.
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Thurnez Isa

Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

AFK

Quote from: Rip City Hustle on November 20, 2009, 05:53:05 PM
RWHN, let me ask you a question.

If marijuana suddenly ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think that the kids who have these problems would suddenly stop having these problems that cause them to turn to drugs? Or would they just find another drug? (as you undoubtedly know, many of the kids in Maine are already doing just that by skipping weed and going straight to OxyContin)

If not another drug another release.  Maybe kids would huff later in their lives as know that behavior generally drops off after kids get into high school.  Maybe kids would be MORE promiscuous.  Who knows? 

QuoteAnd operating under the premise that these kids with these problems will find SOME drug to try to fill whatever emotional hole is inside them, how does it make any sense to blame a particular substance when the substance is obviously a symptom of the problem and not the cause?

The behavior is a symptom.  Not the substance itself.  It would be cool if you could somehow move kids away from using a chemical to medicate to a natural high.  And that is part of our prevention strategies to get kids thinking more along those lines.  But alas, it doesn't work as often as we'd like it to. 

Quoteand given that if marijuana suddenly disappearing from the face of the earth wouldn't keep these kids from doing drugs and fucking up their lives, how do you reasonably come to the conclusion that if marijuana were legal for adults and regulated like alcohol and tobacco (I would lean towards regulating it like alcohol but that's another conversation) that kids without these problems would suddenly decide to fuck their lives up too?

Because you are assuming that EVERY kid who uses marijuana is solely using it to self medicate.  You are forgetting the kids who start out experimenting with drugs as a part of their natural proclivity to take risks. 

QuoteIt seems to me that you are placing the blame for the problem on the symptom and not the cause.

Right, but again the behavior is the symptom.  Not the substance. 

QuoteThe problem is children with inadequate parents, emotional trauma, mental health issues, etc. That's not going to go away because of drugs and drugs aren't causing those problems, they're simply exacerbating them in cases where those problems are already present.

Well, that's not entirely true.  I would argue that substances can be the causes of some of these problems.  For instance a Parents substance abuse certainly does have an impact on a child and can lead to emotional trauma, which can create a circle of substance abuse.  But as you say, the substances certainly can excacerbate the problems which for me is a very adequate reason to keep barriers in place. 

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

trippinprincezz13

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on November 20, 2009, 03:01:10 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 20, 2009, 02:34:35 PM
QuoteOr did they go into a worse situation because they were involved in the black market and got onto harder stuff because it was available?

In pretty much every case they sought out harder stuff because marijuana wasn't cutting it anymore.  I highly doubt any of these kids would've gone from alcohol to heroin.  It's pretty atypical in my experience.  Which is to say it happens but not very often. 

As for "not cutting it", not cutting it for a high? Or not cutting it to deal with whatever problems, issues, whatever, that they were turning to substance abuse to in the first place? Why drink a beer when you can pound five shots of tequila. Sure, a joint might relax me a bit, but shooting up a shitload of heroin will put me into a stupor and make me forget my problems even faster. It's not because I'm building a tolerance to weed and/or it's not getting me high anymore. It's because I don't know how to deal with my problems and am going to look for ANY way to kill the pain.  I see it as more of an inability to deal with life rather than a tolerance to marijuana.

Despite regularly smoking, my tolerance is not really that high, and a few hits or so will do me good depending on the quality. I might dabble in some other things if they cross my path, others I do not. If things dry up (including our money) and we don't have weed for a few days, weeks, etc. I might be a bit cranky for a day, because I enjoy having it, but that quickly fades and it may as well not exist to me until it becomes available again. I don't have a fix I need to fill.

Off the top of my head, I have to say I don't know anyone that's ever though "gee whiz, this weed's not cutting it anymore. I'm gonna go snort some coke and smoke some PCP and see what happens".  At least in my experience, rather than getting bored with weed and seeking out other drugs, the main time I come across other substances, are from weed dealers that will try to get you interested in this or that when you go for a bag. If I was buying weed from a store set up similarly to a liquor store, my guess is that the clerk wouldn't be offering anyone a bag of coke or heroin to go with my weed. As Dr. Rat and others have mentioned, it's the black market that's exposing kids and adults to harder drugs when they go to find weed.
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AFK

And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

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Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on November 20, 2009, 07:19:37 PM
And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 

Of course not, but it might reduce the number of kids that are interested in pot and end up getting fucked by criminals.
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trippinprincezz13

Um, no. Never said that at all.

But the black market being what it is, kids going to by a "harmless" bag of weed, are going to be exposed, encouraged, what have you, by the dealers to "oh well, while you're getting that, how about a bag of this premium coke I just picked up? Here, try this line for free." "Oh yea, got a couple Oxy's lying around, you interested?"

OF COURSE there will still be a black market for harder drugs, but kids looking to experiment with a little weed will have more exposure to them when going to a dealer for their drugs, than asking one of their older buddies to pop into the weed store for them to grab a dime bag.

And legalizing weed would give kids access to more weed by the fact that more adults will have it - however, responsible adults/parents aren't going to just leave their weed around for their kids to find and would actually talk to kids about the risks/consequences of weed, much as many responsible parents do now with drugs/alcohol/sex.

The people who don't give a shit are going to leave their drugs around for their kids to find and buy kids beer/hypothetically legal weed anyway. Weed being legal isn't going to turn every one who decides to light up from responsible/caring parents/adults into assholes who don't give a shit about kids doing drugs.
There's no sun shine coming through her ass, if you are sure of your penis.

Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing next to you, may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution.

If there is no order in your sexual life it may be difficult to stay with a whole skin.

AFK

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 20, 2009, 07:30:40 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on November 20, 2009, 07:19:37 PM
And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 

Of course not, but it might reduce the number of kids that are interested in pot and end up getting fucked by criminals.
:lulz:

Umm, no.  Just no. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

trippinprincezz13

Not trying to speak for Rat, but I'm pretty sure he's not saying that it would reduce the number of kids interested in pot...
There's no sun shine coming through her ass, if you are sure of your penis.

Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing next to you, may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution.

If there is no order in your sexual life it may be difficult to stay with a whole skin.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 20, 2009, 05:47:59 PM
Yes.  Liberty trumps safety, health, and even The Children™.

Troof! Just like free speech means nazi fucheads get their say. I'm comfortable with that. Freedom is all or nothing. It gets ugly sometimes. Not for the faint hearted but the alternative is something I'd set on fire rather than live with. And I couldn't give a fuck how many die in the flames.

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Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on November 20, 2009, 07:30:52 PM
Um, no. Never said that at all.

But the black market being what it is, kids going to by a "harmless" bag of weed, are going to be exposed, encouraged, what have you, by the dealers to "oh well, while you're getting that, how about a bag of this premium coke I just picked up? Here, try this line for free." "Oh yea, got a couple Oxy's lying around, you interested?"

OF COURSE there will still be a black market for harder drugs, but kids looking to experiment with a little weed will have more exposure to them when going to a dealer for their drugs, than asking one of their older buddies to pop into the weed store for them to grab a dime bag.

And legalizing weed would give kids access to more weed by the fact that more adults will have it - however, responsible adults/parents aren't going to just leave their weed around for their kids to find and would actually talk to kids about the risks/consequences of weed, much as many responsible parents do now with drugs/alcohol/sex.

The people who don't give a shit are going to leave their drugs around for their kids to find and buy kids beer/hypothetically legal weed anyway. Weed being legal isn't going to turn every one who decides to light up from responsible/caring parents/adults into assholes who don't give a shit about kids doing drugs.
:cn:


http://www.drugwatch.org/Cannabis%20statistics%20Europe.htm

are the top 5 made up of the countries with the least stringent drug laws?

edit: oh woopsy, thats a school survey. not about adults at all.
dammit.
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AFK

Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on November 20, 2009, 07:30:52 PM
Um, no. Never said that at all.

But the black market being what it is, kids going to by a "harmless" bag of weed, are going to be exposed, encouraged, what have you, by the dealers to "oh well, while you're getting that, how about a bag of this premium coke I just picked up? Here, try this line for free." "Oh yea, got a couple Oxy's lying around, you interested?"

OF COURSE there will still be a black market for harder drugs, but kids looking to experiment with a little weed will have more exposure to them when going to a dealer for their drugs, than asking one of their older buddies to pop into the weed store for them to grab a dime bag.

Okay, this is actually for young adults age 18-25, but it isn't difficult to think this pattern is similar, if not stronger, amongst 12-17 year olds.

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k6/MJsource/MJsource.htm

In that study you will see that it is pretty clear that friends are most frequently the source for marijuana

QuoteAnd legalizing weed would give kids access to more weed by the fact that more adults will have it - however, responsible adults/parents aren't going to just leave their weed around for their kids to find and would actually talk to kids about the risks/consequences of weed, much as many responsible parents do now with drugs/alcohol/sex.

Umm, no.  Because parents are part of the problem.  If they aren't modeling the behavior, or encouraging it by providing a safe haven, they are saying shit like "It's a rite of passage", or when they relive their college glory days, they are reinforcing the idea that its okay to use.  Parents, as a group, need to come a long way before we can trust them with an extra supply of pot.  Obviously there are responsible parents who do the right thing, but it is clear to me they are being (pardon the pun) blunted by the not so stellar parents.  

QuoteThe people who don't give a shit are going to leave their drugs around for their kids to find and buy kids beer/hypothetically legal weed anyway. Weed being legal isn't going to turn every one who decides to light up from responsible/caring parents/adults into assholes who don't give a shit about kids doing drugs.

Never claimed it would.  My contention is there are far too many examples of the first kind of parents you describe.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 20, 2009, 07:51:23 PM
Freedom is all or nothing. It gets ugly sometimes. Not for the faint hearted but the alternative is something I'd set on fire rather than live with.

This.  Freedom is not a means to an end, it is the only end.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.