So, the economist and time agree: It's about fucking time to LEGALISE IT

[Kai]

I'd like to give RWHN some credit; as far as I know he's the only person on this board who works with chemically dependent and at-risk youths.  Because of this, he has very different experiences and opinions about drugs, and has seen far more cases and data regarding their use and effects.

While in my personal experience I have seen people react to drugs in both positive an negative ways, my sample size is extremely small.  Even if I can relate the personal drug histories of 100 people, that's still far too small to be accurate.  That's why anectdotal evidence is generally considered bullshit.

I understand that due to his job, he sees far more negative cases than positive ones; but the point is that these "negative" cases are still fucking humans.  They aren't statistics, and they sure as fuck aren't "acceptable losses" so you can get high whenever you want to.  

You can argue about how "society" is screwed up, and if we ended the War on Drugs and we all were taught and teach "responsibility" to each other, we could eliminate drug abuse and addiction.  And if you believe that world will ever exist, then you probably believe in the model that all people make rational decisions when faced with economic decisions.

RWHN is dealing with the situation as it is, not as what it might be if all of humanity had their IQ, Empathy, Will Power, and Self Respect boosted a hundredfold overnight.  In our current culture, and for the forseeable future, huge swaths of kids are doing damage to themselves which may turn out to be permanent.  RWHN has done all he can to help them.

What the fuck have any of you done?

I agree heartily with the above.

[Captain Utopia]

RWHN is dealing with the situation as it is, not as what it might be if all of humanity had their IQ, Empathy, Will Power, and Self Respect boosted a hundredfold overnight.  In our current culture, and for the forseeable future, huge swaths of kids are doing damage to themselves which may turn out to be permanent.  RWHN has done all he can to help them.

This.

I took the point of this thread as focussing on what a potential future could look like, and less about how the present is, and even less about how to get from here to there. The two latter points are vitally important, but I think it's an entirely valid form of exploratory thought to scout out new territory and then later fill in the details of how to get from A to B.

[LMNO]

We are currently in "A".

"A" sucks.  It contains an authoritarian government, a large percentage of disenfranchised, uneducated, self-destructive youths with little to no means of recourse if they get addicted to drugs; it also contains heavy-handed drug laws that are disproportionatly skewed to punish the lower economic classes, and a repressive social attitude towards the chemically dependent.

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.




Breaking news: "B" will never exist.

[Cait M. R.]

I respect RWHN. I'm not saying people who have problems are "acceptable casualties." I'm saying the problem is overstated and illegal weed hurts more than it helps.

For example, I self-medicate with pot. It gets rid of many problems I have almost completely -- and it's not just the high. That wears off in an hour or two, the stabilizing effects last me a good 3 days. Oh, I've tried doctor prescribed drugs, believe me, they don't do shit for me -- in fact, all of them so far just make it worse. And to go without? Kai can tell you what I get like when under stress without any medication, illegal or otherwise. It's not pretty.

To be fair, when I started pot, all my life's problems sort of worked together to push me into a hole where I was drug-dealing to eat and in a truly bad mental state. But here's the important thing -- normally, I would have left that go. I'm a passive person, when shit goes wrong I'm more likely to bear it than try to change it. In this case I fought my way up, and I'm now literally on the doorstep of fulfilling a lifelong dream with game development (thanks to all the PD people helping me do this!). I have actual friends in real life, something I have literally never had before. And consider that if I got busted now, I'd be in jail. I'm literally caught in a decision between living the cliche of basement-dwelling social outcast in a shitty victim "There's nothing I can do" mindset or risking every day going to jail.

Am I an acceptable casualty, LMNO?

[LMNO]

Yes.



And what did I say about personal anectdotes?














LMNO
-Can often be a dick at times.

[Captain Utopia]

We are currently in "A".

"A" sucks.  It contains an authoritarian government, a large percentage of disenfranchised, uneducated, self-destructive youths with little to no means of recourse if they get addicted to drugs; it also contains heavy-handed drug laws that are disproportionatly skewed to punish the lower economic classes, and a repressive social attitude towards the chemically dependent.

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.




Breaking news: "B" will never exist.

Then we'll keep redefining "B" until it stops sounding so stupid and has instead turned into a realistic proposition. Is there anything wrong with that?

[LMNO]

You may have forgotten the several dozen times this topic has been brought up on PD.com.


Guess what?  The definition for "B" has never changed.  The Utopiates on this board simply gang up on RWHN because they don't want their visions of selfish hedonism destroyed.

[Cait M. R.]

Then what am I expected to do, LMNO? Just living my life isn't going to work, I tried that. It could have ruined me for good if I had left it alone.

Am I expected to just keep doing as I am with the knowledge that one day everything I've worked toward will be completely and permanently annulled when the police come knocking?

Okay, because I think legalization would be a good idea, I'm ganging up on RWHN. And I'm lying about how irreparably fucked in the head I am just so I have an excuse to get high.

Fuck you. I was going to try to be reasonable about this, but you just showed you're incapable of reasoning when it comes to this discussion. Oh, and implying I'm a liar (twice, even) is not cool. It's actually pretty fucking shitty.

Like I said: fuck you.

[LMNO]

Yes, maybe, no, I'm a dick, no I didn't, whatever.




In that order.

[Template]

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.

Breaking news: "B" will never exist.

There just aren't enough genuinely mean Utopians, are there?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

not as what it might be if all of humanity had their IQ, Empathy, Will Power, and Self Respect boosted a hundredfold overnight.  In our current culture, and for the forseeable future, huge swaths of kids are doing damage to themselves which may turn out to be permanent.  RWHN has done all he can to help them.

I don't think I argued that at all.

People are dumb, they do dumb things. Kids are dumb they do dumb things. I don't ever see that changing.

The current drug policy is dumb it wastes money, puts people in jail, creates a black market, funds criminal activity and IT IS STILL EASY FOR KIDS TO GET DRUGS. The government's official position is to lie if the truth doesn't support the policy. The policy was originally based on lies and prejudice, particularly around pot.

I don't believe that people are going to become More Responsible but I fail to see what the fuck that has to do with stupid laws that are based on stupid lies. Stupid laws are bad/wrong because they are stupid laws. Most evidence available in areas where prohibition was relaxed indicate that people do not turn into drug laden zombies, wandering through a desolated city seeking the Next Big Hit.

[LMNO]

No, you're arguing that the current system of government, legislation, and law enforcement is funamentally flawed and needs to be changed in radical and unprecidented ways.

Which is still a pipe dream*, and doesn't address the current situation.
























*"pipe dream".  Get it?

[Z³]

No, you're arguing that the current system of government, legislation, and law enforcement is funamentally flawed and needs to be changed in radical and unprecidented ways.

Which is still a pipe dream*, and doesn't address the current situation.
























*"pipe dream".  Get it?

Its hardly radical or unprecedented when its brought up by events that occur in the real world.
Are you suggesting that those in favor of legalization give up, and simply accept the status quo?

Also the A vs B dichotomy you use is an excellent way of portraying the different extremes, and arguing against one extreme while promoting the other. Sure, B may never exist, but it hardly makes A acceptable.

[Kai]

We're all full of shit in our own large ways.

[LMNO]

No, you're arguing that the current system of government, legislation, and law enforcement is funamentally flawed and needs to be changed in radical and unprecidented ways.

Which is still a pipe dream*, and doesn't address the current situation.

*"pipe dream".  Get it?

Its hardly radical or unprecedented when its brought up by events that occur in the real world.
Are you suggesting that those in favor of legalization give up, and simply accept the status quo?

Also the A vs B dichotomy you use is an excellent way of portraying the different extremes, and arguing against one extreme while promoting the other. Sure, B may never exist, but it hardly makes A acceptable.

Show of hands: How many of you have actually worked to overturn the current drug policy?

And I never said that "A" was better than "B": I said that RWHN is the only one doing something to help those trapped in "A".