So, the economist and time agree: It's about fucking time to LEGALISE IT

[trippinprincezz13]

Um, no. Never said that at all.

But the black market being what it is, kids going to by a "harmless" bag of weed, are going to be exposed, encouraged, what have you, by the dealers to "oh well, while you're getting that, how about a bag of this premium coke I just picked up? Here, try this line for free." "Oh yea, got a couple Oxy's lying around, you interested?"

OF COURSE there will still be a black market for harder drugs, but kids looking to experiment with a little weed will have more exposure to them when going to a dealer for their drugs, than asking one of their older buddies to pop into the weed store for them to grab a dime bag.

And legalizing weed would give kids access to more weed by the fact that more adults will have it - however, responsible adults/parents aren't going to just leave their weed around for their kids to find and would actually talk to kids about the risks/consequences of weed, much as many responsible parents do now with drugs/alcohol/sex.

The people who don't give a shit are going to leave their drugs around for their kids to find and buy kids beer/hypothetically legal weed anyway. Weed being legal isn't going to turn every one who decides to light up from responsible/caring parents/adults into assholes who don't give a shit about kids doing drugs.

http://www.drugwatch.org/Cannabis%20statistics%20Europe.htm

are the top 5 made up of the countries with the least stringent drug laws?

edit: oh woopsy, thats a school survey. not about adults at all.
dammit.
please ignore everything but

Citation need on....which part? I suppose I could have prefaced that entire paragraph with an "in my experience".

In short, *in my experience*...

Are kids more likely going to try something if they're exposed to it and/or it's offered to them by someone they may or may not know, or if you know, they're not exposed to it? I sure know that when I go to the liquor store for a beer, I'm not being offered a sample of heroin to go with that. So unless I'm already planning to go get some heroin, going to the liquor store for a beer, isn't going to make me feel like experimenting with some heroin.

With regard to the parents, sure people can change for the better or worse, but really, do you think that if the laws changed, people's attitudes are automatically going to change with them? If a parent doesn't care what they're kid does, it's going to be regardless of the law. People that don't think kids should be drinking or doing drugs for health/psychological/moral reasons aren't going to run out to the playgrounds with a bunch of joints for all the wee children. I have a close friend whose father smoked pot, but not openly in front of them, nor did they advocate smoking weed and they kept it hidden as much as possible.

[trippinprincezz13]

RWHN, I'm gonna try to address your post as soon as I can. But, boss just got back so I have a whole bunch of fun work to finish before I leave for the day.

Not ignoring your comments tho

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 

Of course not, but it might reduce the number of kids that are interested in pot and end up getting fucked by criminals.

Umm, no.  Just no. 

Um, what I meant was kids that are interested in trying pot would be less likely to be in a position where they end up getting fucked over by criminals.

Your comment on where kids get their weed may be correct in some sense... That is, many adults get their weed from friends (at least that I know of), because one friend has a good connection. So you give that friend money, they go deal  and come back with weed. So if there 6 stoners, maybe only one of them actually went to a dealer.

With kids that would be the same... Joey goes to the dealer and picks up for Tommy, Suzy and Bob. Sure 3/4s of the kids are getting pot from a friend... But Joey is still hanging out at a dealers getting exposed to who knows what... and next time, maybe he'll take Suzy with him.

[AFK]

And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 

Of course not, but it might reduce the number of kids that are interested in pot and end up getting fucked by criminals.

Umm, no.  Just no. 

Um, what I meant was kids that are interested in trying pot would be less likely to be in a position where they end up getting fucked over by criminals.

Your comment on where kids get their weed may be correct in some sense... That is, many adults get their weed from friends (at least that I know of), because one friend has a good connection. So you give that friend money, they go deal  and come back with weed. So if there 6 stoners, maybe only one of them actually went to a dealer.

It wasn't just a comment, it was a citation of a study that indicated social contacts were in the majority as a source for marijuana, bought or borrowed. 

With kids that would be the same... Joey goes to the dealer and picks up for Tommy, Suzy and Bob. Sure 3/4s of the kids are getting pot from a friend... But Joey is still hanging out at a dealers getting exposed to who knows what... and next time, maybe he'll take Suzy with him.

You're starting to reach now. 

[AFK]

RWHN, I'm gonna try to address your post as soon as I can. But, boss just got back so I have a whole bunch of fun work to finish before I leave for the day.

Not ignoring your comments tho

Well after this post I won't be back until tomorrow anyhow.  I'm more or less a 9-5, Monday-Friday poster. 

[trippinprincezz13]

Nice. That means I can wait til Monday too, since that's pretty much my case. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

And if the black market went away kids would stop knowing about harder substances?  You really think that? 

Of course not, but it might reduce the number of kids that are interested in pot and end up getting fucked by criminals.

Umm, no.  Just no. 

Um, what I meant was kids that are interested in trying pot would be less likely to be in a position where they end up getting fucked over by criminals.

Your comment on where kids get their weed may be correct in some sense... That is, many adults get their weed from friends (at least that I know of), because one friend has a good connection. So you give that friend money, they go deal  and come back with weed. So if there 6 stoners, maybe only one of them actually went to a dealer.

It wasn't just a comment, it was a citation of a study that indicated social contacts were in the majority as a source for marijuana, bought or borrowed. 

Either way, I'm not claiming its wrong... it appears to mirror what happens in the adult world. Don't start fighting me when I agree with you!

With kids that would be the same... Joey goes to the dealer and picks up for Tommy, Suzy and Bob. Sure 3/4s of the kids are getting pot from a friend... But Joey is still hanging out at a dealers getting exposed to who knows what... and next time, maybe he'll take Suzy with him.

You're starting to reach now. 

How is that a reach? It appears consistent with what I've seen. People picking up for friends is standard procedure, at least in this area.

[East Coast Hustle]

yeah, that's not a reach at all, that's just how it actually is.

RCH,
speaking as an ex-dealer

[Verbal Mike]

RWHN, I highly respect your perspective because you deal with the damage that drugs do, but it seems like you're overgeneralizing a little. Frankly, my parents are incredibly responsible people, and absolutely great parents, and nonetheless they (both!) actually recommended I try weed. They did this when I was 18 and it was great advice. I have been smoking pot daily in the past few months and it's actually been a very good thing for me. I'm still somewhere around the top of my class (as far as actual involvement, interest and knowledge in my field, not grades) and probably by far the heaviest stoner in said class. Using weed more regularly did not affect me for the worse.

This is anecdotal evidence, and obviously I am not saying pot cannot be damaging to people. I've seen it myself with a close friend. But there are invariably other factors in play. When a person is happy and healthy and social, weed doesn't kill that. When a person is in a bad situation, under emotional duress and isolated, it can be worse.

(Additional caveat: starting at 18 generally has lower potential to fuck you up on many levels. But this is not isolated from the more general well-being of the individual, which tends to just be highly inconsistent and not too amazing when you're a teenager.)

But you know all this.

My point, I think, is that every case is different, and people should be allowed to make these decisions for themeselves. That includes parents making bad parenting decisions like giving/recommending/praising weed to/before children who should not be using it. It seems to me that drug abuse and damaging drug use are far more often symptoms than causes, or if not symptoms, simply part of a bigger ugly picture. If parents take part in causing a young person to do something damaging to themselves, chances are their attitude towards drugs are not the only facet of the situation. In the big scheme of things, addressing that as a problem is putting a bandaid on an open gut. It's not going to fix dysfunctional families, it's not going to fix rotten communities, and it's not even going to make parents stop intentionally or unintentionally fucking up their children.

I hope you see what I'm saying.

[East Coast Hustle]

also, in America we believe in being free to make our own choices and not being fucked with for them UNTIL they have a direct negative impact on another individual. Restricting our choices pre-emptively because they MIGHT turn out poorly is just fucking unamerican.

speaking for myself, if the government legalized marijuana as a private enterprise, I'd be the first one to donate some of my profits to enterprises such as yours whether or not I was required to by the state and I suspect that there are plenty of others out there who would be happy to do the same if they didn't have to worry about being jailed for making the source of their income known.

(please to note that I do not currently make an income from marijuana, but I'd sure like to go back to it.)

[Thurnez Isa]

We have to keep drugs illegal

Otherwise I would have sat through that Cartoon Allstar Special for NOTHING

[BabylonHoruv]

I'd greatly prefer it were taxed.  Not so high as to encourage a black market, but the budget of the local, state, and federal government where i live could all do with the boost that tax revenues from weed could bring.

taxed, sales tax, or taxed cigarettes, petrol and alcohol taxed? if you get what I mean.

Cigarette and Alcohol taxed.  Sin Taxed in other words.

Petrol doesn't get taxed that much in the US, I kinda wish it did.

[BabylonHoruv]

So was that because weed caused the problems, or was weed an escape from problems?

Well, they were speeches, not interviews, but I would wager that it was an attempt to escape from problems that only served to exacerbate the problems. 

Or did they go into a worse situation because they were involved in the black market and got onto harder stuff because it was available?

In pretty much every case they sought out harder stuff because marijuana wasn't cutting it anymore.  I highly doubt any of these kids would've gone from alcohol to heroin.  It's pretty atypical in my experience.  Which is to say it happens but not very often. 

Did they smoke only weed or also drink alcohol? Is weed a cause here, or a symptom?

They did drink as well.  It seems though that the drinking and marijuana were pretty much simultaneous.  And I think that is more the case now.  It's rare you see a kid who is involved in only one substance.  But they all articulated that the way it evolved was that marijuana was what led them to the next substance.  And part of it of course was that it was available and part of it was a tolerance to marijuana where the effect just wasn't cutting it anymore.  Alcohol was the tricycle and marijuana was the bike with training wheels.  Eventually the wheels come off, and then, well, the wheels come off. 

IS this causation or correlation?

Does it matter?  The point is that the substance exacerbated some obvious underlying issues.  But, because the issues existed before the substance was introduced should not suggest the substance gets some kind of amnesty.  It would be like arguing against gun control measures to protect kids because the kid obviously had some issues thinking he could play with a gun and not get hurt, or that he was severely depressed before blowing a hole through his head.  If the implement used to deal with the issue can cause greater harm, my argument is that it is in our best interest to make sure that implement is regulated and kept, as best as possible, out of the hands of kids. 

The point i get here is that marijuana is a gateway drug.  Which I absolutely agree with.  However i think there may be some differences as to WHY it is a gateway drug.  To me it is because it is illegal, so if you can get ahold of it you know someone who knows how to get ahold of something else.  Also you've broken that taboo, you've *gasp* purchased illegal narcotics. 

There's nothing inherent in the chemical makeup of marijuana that makes it lead people on to harder drugs.  It's a tool used by escapists that can make it harder to deal with their real problems, this is absolutely true, so is internet pron, or WoW or alcohol.  The only reason pot is a gateway drug and alcohol is not, in my opinion, is because alcohol is legal.  If Marijuana were legal it would no longer serve as a stepping stone to harder drugs.  No more, at least, than cigarettes, which are usually the first drug tried by hard drug users, do now.

[BabylonHoruv]

Or did they go into a worse situation because they were involved in the black market and got onto harder stuff because it was available?

In pretty much every case they sought out harder stuff because marijuana wasn't cutting it anymore.  I highly doubt any of these kids would've gone from alcohol to heroin.  It's pretty atypical in my experience.  Which is to say it happens but not very often. 

As for "not cutting it", not cutting it for a high? Or not cutting it to deal with whatever problems, issues, whatever, that they were turning to substance abuse to in the first place? Why drink a beer when you can pound five shots of tequila. Sure, a joint might relax me a bit, but shooting up a shitload of heroin will put me into a stupor and make me forget my problems even faster. It's not because I'm building a tolerance to weed and/or it's not getting me high anymore. It's because I don't know how to deal with my problems and am going to look for ANY way to kill the pain.  I see it as more of an inability to deal with life rather than a tolerance to marijuana.

Despite regularly smoking, my tolerance is not really that high, and a few hits or so will do me good depending on the quality. I might dabble in some other things if they cross my path, others I do not. If things dry up (including our money) and we don't have weed for a few days, weeks, etc. I might be a bit cranky for a day, because I enjoy having it, but that quickly fades and it may as well not exist to me until it becomes available again. I don't have a fix I need to fill.

Off the top of my head, I have to say I don't know anyone that's ever though "gee whiz, this weed's not cutting it anymore. I'm gonna go snort some coke and smoke some PCP and see what happens".  At least in my experience, rather than getting bored with weed and seeking out other drugs, the main time I come across other substances, are from weed dealers that will try to get you interested in this or that when you go for a bag. If I was buying weed from a store set up similarly to a liquor store, my guess is that the clerk wouldn't be offering anyone a bag of coke or heroin to go with my weed. As Dr. Rat and others have mentioned, it's the black market that's exposing kids and adults to harder drugs when they go to find weed.

I've also seen people turn to other drugs when prohibition on weed is successful and drives the price up to the point that it becomes considerably cheaper to use something like Meth.  Meth is easier to make in a small space than weed, and harder to catch someone at. 

It's also something that I am actually in favor of keeping illegal if anything is going to be illegal, the effect it has on people is BAD.

[East Coast Hustle]

the effect that eating fast food every day has on people is BAD.

we should outlaw fast food.

the effect that unplanned pregnancies and STDs have on people is BAD.

we should outlaw unprotected sex.

the effect that regressive social policies have on people is BAD.

we should outlaw voting republican.

ad infinitum.