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A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

Started by NotPublished, December 24, 2009, 01:29:01 AM

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singer

QuoteMagick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.
This has got to be among the most imperfect definitions ever.  My flipping a light switch matches that definition, but is in no way an example of "magic" as most people want "magic" to be defined.  Typically folks want some sort of unexplained/unexplainable phenomenology to be present
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

LMNO

Which is why I usually include the phrase "non-local".


Still not perfect, but it does address the expectations of most people.

Captain Utopia

Quote from: LMNO on December 24, 2009, 05:32:52 PM
Quote from: FP on December 24, 2009, 05:15:13 PM
So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the benefits which can come from applying a higher goal to many of your day-to-day actions and interactions, I just think talking about spirits and non-scientific energy or forces, to be somewhat of a dead-end.


If you carefully parse the above comments, you will see we are criticizing the scientific jargon that some magicians use to validate their beliefs, not about the efficacy of certain types or theories of magic.
I'm not sure if you were joking about not reading the OP or not, but I was responding to that; not the "OMG! Non-scientists are trying to appropriate scientific jargon and are misusing it!" which followed.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 05:39:54 PM
QuoteMagick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.
This has got to be among the most imperfect definitions ever.  My flipping a light switch matches that definition, but is in no way an example of "magic" as most people want "magic" to be defined.  Typically folks want some sort of unexplained/unexplainable phenomenology to be present

Crowley specifically includes things like flipping a light switch, because that is how his philosophy of Magic works. You want light in a room, so you run the mental program "go turn on the switch". Most of our days and nights are automated robotic responses, promptly running the built in program that may have come into existence from your parents training, your life experiences or education. The difference between going through life running these automated programs and committing acts of Intention and Will is the difference between Monkey and Magician. Magical Arts are simply methods and tools that the Magician can use to modify the programming through Will. So that even your daily activities are managed through Will rather than Robot.

After reading everything Crowley has written, I think  that is his view in a nutshell. On top of that, he invoked his Will on others, mostly in the form of Mindfucks, again Magic.

In short Crowley just used insane metaphors to talk about jailbreaking from the Black Iron Prison...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

singer

Are there any non-magical examples of  "a series of actions that cause a non-local effect?"
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Further, bitching about the rubes that get caught in the "Magic Is Really Real" Mindfuck is not nearly as much fun as helping them.

Do you have any idea how easy it is to get neo-pagans and sSolitary Wiccans to do completely insane things because you can speak the jargon and grok the symbols well enough?

:lulz:

Bob Wilson said Discordians were the antibodies of the Neopagan movement... the people that would stop once in awhile and say "Hey guys, some of this might be bullshit". But really, it's been decades and the marks still don't get it. You can yell at the wall or paint graffiti on it, think about it.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 05:54:24 PM
Are there any non-magical examples of  "a series of actions that cause a non-local effect?"

Possibly, but currently unobservable.


It's, like, quantum and stuff.

singer

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
Magical Arts are simply methods and tools that the Magician can use to modify the programming through Will. So that even your daily activities are managed through Will rather than Robot.


I'm pretty sure I get the point, and I would tend to agree that the "practice makes perfect" ideology could pave the way for yielding more regular results... just as it does with sports, or music, or any other discipline.  However I suspect that, without a great deal of further discussion, most will reject the idea that "it's magic because I did it with conscious intent"
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

singer

Quote from: LMNO on December 24, 2009, 05:58:09 PM
Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 05:54:24 PM
Are there any non-magical examples of  "a series of actions that cause a non-local effect?"

Possibly, but currently unobservable.


It's, like, quantum and stuff.
:lulz:

(I think there may be some in computer programming... but I wouldn't want to spoil the lulz over it....)
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 05:54:24 PM
Are there any non-magical examples of  "a series of actions that cause a non-local effect?"

QUANTUMZ!!!!

Quantum Entanglement is possibly an example... but its also possibly just an incomplete model.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 06:02:04 PM
Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 05:54:24 PM
Are there any non-magical examples of  "a series of actions that cause a non-local effect?"

QUANTUMZ!!!!

Quantum Entanglement is possibly an example... but its also possibly just an incomplete model.

Pretty much.  The math currently indicates that two particles can act as if they have an effect on each other without information passing between them. 


Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:01:08 PM
(I think there may be some in computer programming... but I wouldn't want to spoil the lulz over it....)

You might need to explain this a bit more.  I don't see how computer programming could generate non-local effects.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
Magical Arts are simply methods and tools that the Magician can use to modify the programming through Will. So that even your daily activities are managed through Will rather than Robot.


I'm pretty sure I get the point, and I would tend to agree that the "practice makes perfect" ideology could pave the way for yielding more regular results... just as it does with sports, or music, or any other discipline.  However I suspect that, without a great deal of further discussion, most will reject the idea that "it's magic because I did it with conscious intent"

Well, thats like saying some Discordians will disagree with what I say because there aren't enough Fnords in it.

Modern "magic" practitioners appear to be largely made of idiots that just believe what they read, instead of actually trying to understand what they read. It doesn't matter what they 'expect', thats what most historical systems of Magic appear to be based on... with the exception of some of the more modern nonsense.

You can bring the fire, but earth is not burned by fire... much better to just mix the dirt with bullshit and see what might grow.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

singer

Quote from: LMNO on December 24, 2009, 06:07:34 PM



Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:01:08 PM
(I think there may be some in computer programming... but I wouldn't want to spoil the lulz over it....)

You might need to explain this a bit more.  I don't see how computer programming could generate non-local effects.

Sorry.  I was referencing the definitions of magic from the computing dictionary.

The entire definition reads:
Quote

An early system on the midac computer.

[Listed in CACM 2(5):16 (May 1959)].

[jargon file]

#

1. As yet unexplained, or too complicated to explain; compare automagically and (Arthur C.) Clarke's Third Law:

        Any sufficiently advanced technology is
        indistinguishable from magic.

"TTY echoing is controlled by a large number of magic bits." "This routine magically computes the parity of an 8-bit byte in three instructions."

2. Characteristic of something that works although no one really understands why (this is especially called black magic).

3. (Stanford) A feature not generally publicised that allows something otherwise impossible or a feature formerly in that category but now unveiled.

Compare wizardly, deep magic, heavy wizardry.

For more about hackish "magic" see magic switch story.

4. magic number.

and I always find myself preferring  the 2nd definition.  It isn't specifically restricted to non-local events, but, to my way of thinking, neither is "magic".

"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

singer

Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
Magical Arts are simply methods and tools that the Magician can use to modify the programming through Will. So that even your daily activities are managed through Will rather than Robot.


I'm pretty sure I get the point, and I would tend to agree that the "practice makes perfect" ideology could pave the way for yielding more regular results... just as it does with sports, or music, or any other discipline.  However I suspect that, without a great deal of further discussion, most will reject the idea that "it's magic because I did it with conscious intent"

Well, thats like saying some Discordians will disagree with what I say because there aren't enough Fnords in it.

Modern "magic" practitioners appear to be largely made of idiots that just believe what they read, instead of actually trying to understand what they read. It doesn't matter what they 'expect', thats what most historical systems of Magic appear to be based on... with the exception of some of the more modern nonsense.

You can bring the fire, but earth is not burned by fire... much better to just mix the dirt with bullshit and see what might grow.

So... magic is all auto-somal psychology?  (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just clarifying.)
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: singer on December 24, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on December 24, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
Magical Arts are simply methods and tools that the Magician can use to modify the programming through Will. So that even your daily activities are managed through Will rather than Robot.


I'm pretty sure I get the point, and I would tend to agree that the "practice makes perfect" ideology could pave the way for yielding more regular results... just as it does with sports, or music, or any other discipline.  However I suspect that, without a great deal of further discussion, most will reject the idea that "it's magic because I did it with conscious intent"

Well, thats like saying some Discordians will disagree with what I say because there aren't enough Fnords in it.

Modern "magic" practitioners appear to be largely made of idiots that just believe what they read, instead of actually trying to understand what they read. It doesn't matter what they 'expect', thats what most historical systems of Magic appear to be based on... with the exception of some of the more modern nonsense.

You can bring the fire, but earth is not burned by fire... much better to just mix the dirt with bullshit and see what might grow.

So... magic is all auto-somal psychology?  (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just clarifying.)

Crowley's magic appears to be heavily based on psychology... I'm not sure what you mean by auto-somal...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson