A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

[Kai]

Sorry, I'm still caught up on the "Correlation and Causation are interchangeable" bullshit.

I said 'mutable' not interchangable. Those words do not mean the same thing.

They're not mutable either.

Really? Philosophers all over the world will rejoice now that you've settled the issue then!!

I mean, its not like Aristotle had four different types of causality... or that John Sowa modified the traditional Max Born definition less than a decade ago.

And we certainly can't discuss probabilistic causality, because apparently that doesn't exist either (must have been that Italian sub I ate last night).

Nor can we discuss the theories that causality is an artifact of the way our brains process data... nope can't look there! Oh, can we discuss how 'cause and effect' are finding patterns and how a single 'cause/effect' statement is usually incomplete?

And obviously our understanding of correlation is restricted to a single value as well... "When I smoke pot,, the phone rings, therefore smoking pot causes the phone to ring".... It's not like correlation could be useful in assembling evidence through, oh I don't know statistical analysis, modeling climate or anything like that, hell no!

Obviously I was wrong and the definitions of cause and correlation are etched in stone by the finger of God.

And correlation still corresponds to patterns and causality still corresponds to process; they still have the same definitions. Thank you for the supporting evidence.

*groan*

Ah, so we go from the definitions are not mutable (changeable)... to "Well, let's define them ion the broadest sense so Kai can be right"?

Correspond != definition

That's just dishonest.

No, asshole.

Done with this thread, and tired of the wishywashy bullshit. Plus, apparently my reputation has been attacked in some way. Whatever.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, that was pretty shitty.

[Hangshai]

  However, if this IS a discussion about philosophy, then it's totally pointless, since 99% of philosophy is utter bullshit intended only for lazy Greeks and French people to use to look busy.

this.

[Cain]

Now I know why this thread seems so hauntingly familiar

http://www.erisbarandgrill.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=7839

The best part is, even in that thread, LMNO mentions the similarity most of these discussions tend to have:

It really just becomes the same thread, repeated, doesn't it?

[Triple Zero]

Sorry, I'm still caught up on the "Correlation and Causation are interchangeable" bullshit.

I think this is an interesting observation btw.

It's pretty much the same thing I always concluded about magic. That what it basically does is fuddling up the whole correlation and causation stuff. Often even doing some sort of strange backflip causation.

When I was younger I was a really strong skeptic rational atheist person and this magical talk angered me greatly. Annoyed me to no end.

But then some stuff happened and I started looking at the topic while reserving my judgement, and I found it much easier on my peace of mind to think of it as "funny".

I mean, not that I do magic, but when I read about it, if you understand the weird causal loop twist it makes, it's kinda funny.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It's a slide back into superstition, IMO.  It's offensive in the same way that Kansas evolution-deniers are offensive.

[Hangshai]

A couple people have mentioned that they have practiced Qi Gong or Tai Chi.  Recently I learned about another style called Mo Pai (although Im also finding out this may be Qi Gong, or somehow related).  Ive always remained skeptical of stuff like this, but I still WANT it to be real, because life would be so much cooler with super powers.  Anyway, here is a clip I found of a guy named John Chang, maybe youve seen it already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=related

My question is, this sure looks like the closest a human can get to magic, and Mr. Chang says it is not because he is special, but because he meditates daily with a yoga-like practice.  The question I have for the resident scientists is is something like this even possible, with the manipulation of magnetic fields of the human body to manipulate matter outside the human body?  My limited understanding of quantum physics makes me think yes, but only because it also makes me think that ANYTHING is possible with quantum physics.  But, maybe there just isnt enough energy there, or its the wrong kind of energy.  Like how you need fission or fusion to make bombs or energy, One particular sort of energy use for a desired outcome.  Hope this makes sense, I am willing to elaborate if its not, but I am trying to be concise.

[East Coast Hustle]

my limited understanding of quantum physics leads me to believe that quantum effects are neither observable nor reproduceable on a macro scale, so anything that someone does and explains to you as being somehow "quantum-based" is patently bullshit.

[Kai]

A couple people have mentioned that they have practiced Qi Gong or Tai Chi.  Recently I learned about another style called Mo Pai (although Im also finding out this may be Qi Gong, or somehow related).  Ive always remained skeptical of stuff like this, but I still WANT it to be real, because life would be so much cooler with super powers.  Anyway, here is a clip I found of a guy named John Chang, maybe youve seen it already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=related

My question is, this sure looks like the closest a human can get to magic, and Mr. Chang says it is not because he is special, but because he meditates daily with a yoga-like practice.  The question I have for the resident scientists is is something like this even possible, with the manipulation of magnetic fields of the human body to manipulate matter outside the human body?  My limited understanding of quantum physics makes me think yes, but only because it also makes me think that ANYTHING is possible with quantum physics.  But, maybe there just isnt enough energy there, or its the wrong kind of energy.  Like how you need fission or fusion to make bombs or energy, One particular sort of energy use for a desired outcome.  Hope this makes sense, I am willing to elaborate if its not, but I am trying to be concise.

No, it's not quantum mechanics. The video is interesting, but since I have no physical evidence to go on and only commentary, thats all I can say. From what I have seen so far (personal experience, measurable phenomenon), Chi is a metaphor for the mind-body connection, a very real, powerful and useful thing, and a system of manipulating that connection. I started a thread on this topic at one point, and there was a lot of interesting discussion.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=18255.0 if you're interested.

[Hangshai]

yeah, I found that thread earlier, and lost it again, so thanks for the link.  I was hesitant to bring it up since I never finished reading it and I didnt know if it was all in there...  Ill be able to find out now, thanks!

[Triple Zero]

It's a slide back into superstition, IMO.  It's offensive in the same way that Kansas evolution-deniers are offensive.

well, yeah. I wouldnt want them to teach (chaos) magic in schools or anything. or if they would, it should be on the level as how phlogiston got mentioned in physics and biology class (which was in my school a perfectly reasonable explanation of why people believed such things a couple of hundred years back followed by an explanation why it is false).

[Telarus]

Now I know why this thread seems so hauntingly familiar

http://www.erisbarandgrill.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=7839

The best part is, even in that thread, LMNO mentions the similarity most of these discussions tend to have:

It really just becomes the same thread, repeated, doesn't it?

[depak] OMFG, cyclical reality proves it's all just consciousness !!!!!!!111!!one!!oneone![/depak]

[Golden Applesauce]

A couple people have mentioned that they have practiced Qi Gong or Tai Chi.  Recently I learned about another style called Mo Pai (although Im also finding out this may be Qi Gong, or somehow related).  Ive always remained skeptical of stuff like this, but I still WANT it to be real, because life would be so much cooler with super powers.  Anyway, here is a clip I found of a guy named John Chang, maybe youve seen it already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=related

My question is, this sure looks like the closest a human can get to magic, and Mr. Chang says it is not because he is special, but because he meditates daily with a yoga-like practice.  The question I have for the resident scientists is is something like this even possible, with the manipulation of magnetic fields of the human body to manipulate matter outside the human body?  My limited understanding of quantum physics makes me think yes, but only because it also makes me think that ANYTHING is possible with quantum physics.  But, maybe there just isnt enough energy there, or its the wrong kind of energy.  Like how you need fission or fusion to make bombs or energy, One particular sort of energy use for a desired outcome.  Hope this makes sense, I am willing to elaborate if its not, but I am trying to be concise.

To the bolded line: Yes, but you have to surgically implant powerful magnets inside your body first.  And that just lets you detect magnetic fields (because they tug on the implanted magnets, which you can feel moving.)  I suppose if you used really powerful magnets could stick chunks of iron to yourself or something.  Medically, all that would let you do is screw with people who have a pacemaker, and die if you ever got put into an MRI machine.

[Golden Applesauce]

And as far as "anything is possible with quantum physics": if anybody tells you that something works by the power of quantum, they're full of shit, unless they're talking about a) flash memory, b) really tiny transistors, c) really cold liquid helium, or d) something smaller than a helium ion (alpha particle.)  There are a handful of other things (chemical bonds, esp. the various fullerenes) but in general if someone is trying to apply quantum physics to something larger than a single molecule something is very wrong.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

A couple people have mentioned that they have practiced Qi Gong or Tai Chi.  Recently I learned about another style called Mo Pai (although Im also finding out this may be Qi Gong, or somehow related).  Ive always remained skeptical of stuff like this, but I still WANT it to be real, because life would be so much cooler with super powers.  Anyway, here is a clip I found of a guy named John Chang, maybe youve seen it already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=related

My question is, this sure looks like the closest a human can get to magic, and Mr. Chang says it is not because he is special, but because he meditates daily with a yoga-like practice.  The question I have for the resident scientists is is something like this even possible, with the manipulation of magnetic fields of the human body to manipulate matter outside the human body?  My limited understanding of quantum physics makes me think yes, but only because it also makes me think that ANYTHING is possible with quantum physics.  But, maybe there just isnt enough energy there, or its the wrong kind of energy.  Like how you need fission or fusion to make bombs or energy, One particular sort of energy use for a desired outcome.  Hope this makes sense, I am willing to elaborate if its not, but I am trying to be concise.