A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

[NotPublished]

I was thinking more along the lines; if you put your hand ont the stove, you will immediately yank it off because it hurts too damn bad. Only those with the intent (and looniness) will keep their hand on there without pulling back. That or their reflexes are broken.

But, that might be counted for the Higher-Will, the Will that isn't controlled as easily.

[singer]

But, (and I think this is part of where Dr. Rat was going) it may be possible to 'break your own reflexes' with enough intentional re-programming.  I have heard that there are Tibetan Monks who can control their own heart rates etc.

Though I personally see no immediate benefit to exerting conscious control over my heartbeat, I can postulate some scenarios where it could come in handy.

[NotPublished]

But, (and I think this is part of where Dr. Rat was going) it may be possible to 'break your own reflexes' with enough intentional re-programming.  I have heard that there are Tibetan Monks who can control their own heart rates etc.

I think that it is possible, but as you said - where do the benefits lay? I know I can hold myself very well when being tickled, it pisses my friend off - because I am just ticklish as fuck everywhere. My natural reflex is to laugh, but I can hold it in and look like as if nothing is happening to me - but it does take consious effort on my half, other wise I'll end up squirming and laughing.. thats what she wants to see.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Everyday responses to events... If someone is an asshole to you, how do you respond? Is that a learned response? Is it automatic, or do you consider how you act in response to "asshole" stimuli?

If someone says "Hey, lets go trespass on this property because there's a cool old empty house to explore... how do you respond? Is that response the one you intentionally Willed, or is it automatic based on your training?

How do you react in front of a crowd?

Is your reaction "magic" reasoned on multiple points of view, or formed from a 'reaction' to your preconceived notions?

Think about how much of your life is automated response to external stimuli... what are your daily rituals in life? Did you intentionally plan them to be as they are, or did they form simply by repetition because of convenience, or the environment you're in?

[NotPublished]

But by following this route, it will end up going about 'Free Will vs Pre-determined' (Something I do not want to even read .. Its just a loop)
So, you are saying I will react the very same to everyone everytime? Or that my reactions are already pre-determined because of who I am.


Its started ~.~

[Bu🤠ns]

Not all actions are through Will, much of our actions appear based on programming, imprints and automated responses.

With the limited exception of reflex and autonomic response,  all actions are based upon will.  It may not be *My True Will* in that it  may be a desire I absorbed and adopted as my own after imprinting, programming, and automation, but, even so, acting on an adopted desire is still acting through will.

To be clear, True Will™ as Crowley puts it is really just Dharma.  It's doing whatever your duty is in each moment.  So an act of Will would be equivalent to a mindful act.  Responding rather than reacting. So acting on an adopted desire may or may not fit each situation.  To determine the right action in each situation one must be aware and respond accordingly.  This is Will as opposed to intention.

[NotPublished]

I have always seen Will and Intention to be along the same lines

1 - "I will this to be the letter A"
2 - "I intend this to be the letter A"

Both have mention of an outcome

[Bu🤠ns]

I have always seen Will and Intention to be along the same lines

1 - "I will this to be the letter A"
2 - "I intend this to be the letter A"

Both have mention of an outcome

I wasn't sure that 'intention' is the best word choice...feel free to substitute 'desire' as that's really what i meant.

[singer]

I think I agree with many bits of what I think is being said here.

We are living in a paradigm which rejects the term "magic" as long as we understand the mechanism of the manifestation.

Maybe this isn't so smart? I can think of a couple of reasons why this part of the definition is not serving evolutionary advancement well.

1) This forces us into a contradictory dilemma where on the one hand we will dismiss the on-screen image of levitation by David Blaine as "trickery" but accept without question the on-screen image of Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon. We accept the technological explanation for these manifestations and NASA is all about technologies of various kinds so far above our heads that I don't even hear the whistle of them passing me by... but I have been given no better "technological" explanation for the images of Blaine levitating than "Photo-Technology" which is supposed to mean camera trickery.

So... If I had a better explanation... would it mean that levitation was "real"... what else would be different? Certainly not the on-screen manifestation... the phenomenon would be what it was whether I understood it or not.

which brings me to point #2) There is a fairly interesting dichotomy exposed in reducing the equation to "If I understand it then it exists... and if I don't understand it then it does not exist." because... expressed another way this becomes "My understanding determines reality" (which I find to be a very pro-magic statement)  maybe even the central theme of "Psycho-Technology"

3) If we must relegate the principles of magic to "that which we do not yet understand" then it follows that magic is found at the leading edge of all cutting-edge "technologies" String theory, particle wave theory, quantum mechanics, dark matter, and other spooky actions at a distance are all understandings achieved at the "cutting edge" of our many technological advancements.

and finally 4) We inhabit "use it or lose it" bodies. Athletes use muscles every day which keeps them in the best possible shape and advances their skill. Philosophers and scientists use their brains every day which keeps them in the best possible shape and advances their skill... by rejecting  psycho/technology or magic we are probably inhibiting the potential advancement of those skills.

I don't think I am about to posit that the answer is to sidestep the "proof" issue in entirety, but I have often thought that just concentrating on the "intent' and "result" bit would still be beneficial somehow.  Maybe the same way it is beneficial to a stroke victim to work toward gaining the ability to walk by using a variety of tools meant to help them with support and balance, the sheer repetition of the muscular motion urges those damaged nerves and muscles to greater strength and repair until.... with enough repetition... they can move without the aid of the tool and through their own volition or will.

So...  if for example, every time we flipped the light switch we also simultaneously "willed" the lights to go on.  Or before we made a phone call we willed the recipient to "get the message" to be near the phone and available to receive our physical call...  perhaps the repetition would strengthen  "magical muscles" increasing the ease of their use?

I don't expect that anyone will ever successfully claim proof that their use of magical energy lights their house, and even wasting time and effort trying to seems "ability atavistic" (kind of like abandoning the match to rub a couple sticks together every time you wanted fire) , but, as this conversation seems to be defining it, "magic" may be far better suited to much more subtle applications (just like a hammer is a tool well suited to many tasks, but fixing a wristwatch isn't one of them) I believe this definition of magic may have many applications, but using it to move in opposition to other universal forces may not be the best or most efficient application of the skill set.

I also understand that this is perilously close to deliberately engaging in "self-deception" in order to "prime the pump" but, all that being said,  I still think that the simple, daily, repetitive practice of pushing our will into the world without worrying about proving the mechanism  might be an essential step to some kind of experiential advancement.

Now I'mma sit back and wait for LMNO to smack me.

[NotPublished]

I have always seen Will and Intention to be along the same lines

1 - "I will this to be the letter A"
2 - "I intend this to be the letter A"

Both have mention of an outcome

I wasn't sure that 'intention' is the best word choice...feel free to substitute 'desire' as that's really what i meant.

To Will is to Intend, to Intend is to Desire, to Desire is to Will. (Ok may not be true in all cases but I think it sums up nicely)

I think before I further confuse myself, lets check out the dictionary

Will : power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
Intention : an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
Desire : The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.

But there are differences in the words (Will/Intention vs Desire) - I think one denotes that you have the necessary conditions to achieve, the other is a want but you are uncertain as to whether you can/will put the required resources in. I think it takes all 3 instances to want to get something done

Nicepost singer, I'll write up something.

[Bu🤠ns]

I have always seen Will and Intention to be along the same lines

1 - "I will this to be the letter A"
2 - "I intend this to be the letter A"

Both have mention of an outcome

I wasn't sure that 'intention' is the best word choice...feel free to substitute 'desire' as that's really what i meant.

To Will is to Intend, to Intend is to Desire, to Desire is to Will. (Ok may not be true in all cases but I think it sums up nicely)

I think before I further confuse myself, lets check out the dictionary

Will : power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
Intention : an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
Desire : The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.

But there are differences in the words (Will/Intention vs Desire) - I think one denotes that you have the necessary conditions to achieve, the other is a want

We're talking about very specific terms here set.  you didn't include "Dharma" in your definition.  Doing your dharma is acting in each moment with mindfulness or self-remembering.  Your desire may or may not be the right action in any given moment so following your Dharma is different than following your desire (but obviously not in every case). 

This is also the difference between doing what you want and doing your Will.  Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".  The 'shall be' are the key words here -- in that you will end up taking accountability for your actions regardless of whether or not you do the right action in each situation.

[Kai]

Then, what the hell is Magic 

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=18255.0

Read that thread and you might have more of an Idea.

[NotPublished]

We're talking about very specific terms here set.  you didn't include "Dharma" in your definition.  Doing your dharma is acting in each moment with mindfulness or self-remembering.  Your desire may or may not be the right action in any given moment so following your Dharma is different than following your desire (but obviously not in every case).  

This is also the difference between doing what you want and doing your Will.  Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".  The 'shall be' are the key words here -- in that you will end up taking accountability for your actions regardless of whether or not you do the right action in each situation.

Thats perfect actually. Each action is obviously up to the person, if they wanted something - but had to do shit to get it. Its up to them to choose which consequence to live with, whether they do shit to achieve their goal, or they do nothing and not get what they want. Both are consequences they'll have to live with.

Then, what the hell is Magic  

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=18255.0

Read that thread and you might have more of an Idea.

Going to have alot of reading to do


*edit* Off to enjoy the feast, I'll get back to this later

[Bu🤠ns]

We're talking about very specific terms here set.  you didn't include "Dharma" in your definition.  Doing your dharma is acting in each moment with mindfulness or self-remembering.  Your desire may or may not be the right action in any given moment so following your Dharma is different than following your desire (but obviously not in every case).  

This is also the difference between doing what you want and doing your Will.  Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".  The 'shall be' are the key words here -- in that you will end up taking accountability for your actions regardless of whether or not you do the right action in each situation.

Thats perfect actually. Each action is obviously up to the person, if they wanted something - but had to do shit to get it. Its up to them to choose which consequence to live with, whether they do shit to achieve their goal, or they do nothing and not get what they want. Both are consequences they'll have to live with.

Congratulations, you are the sole source of your spiritual authority.

[Bu🤠ns]

Then, what the hell is Magic 

This is, btw, the clearest definition that I've ever heard that doesn't go into vague notions of 'energy' or other dumbfuckery.

Alan Moore - Art is Magic