A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Hey, we're getting somewhere.

Who is the magician that makes the grass green?

[Bu🤠ns]

Hey, we're getting somewhere.

Who is the magician that makes the grass green?

hey, i used that line at ESF! 

[Kai]

I've got a letter forthcoming about this, so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but....

I learned a term in Toronto. Cathexis. Freud coined it as a opposite to catharsis. Whereas catharsis is a sort of upwelling and release of emotional energy and tension, cathexis is a infusion of power and emotional energy into non conscious entities and/or objects. You see it with icons (images of deities), the so called aura of art, and puppetry, as some minor examples. Freud was an idiot savant in that he came up with some much bullshit yet in a few moments in some of his "throwaway" thoughts he came up with some rather extraordinary things. Cathexis is one of those.

Freud saw cathexis as unidirectional, but he was pretty narrow minded like that. If you consider cathexis to be bidirectional, where objects are infused with power and gain power over time (in the sense that power is a 2nd-3rd circuit and up draw) and release it in an opposite direction much like a conversation, then magic makes a bit more sense. Objects, non conscious entities, thoughts, concepts, all of these things can store and generate 2nd-3rd circuit + power and release in a sort of communitory response.

And if this sounds like bullshit mumbo jumbo, it is. Freud thought so. It also isn't.

[The Johnny]

A.k.a. sublimation i think.

EDIT: i was more thinking of it in the sense of "opposite of catharsis" but it seems your main point was a different one.

[Hangshai]

I've got a letter forthcoming about this, so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but....

I learned a term in Toronto. Cathexis. Freud coined it as a opposite to catharsis. Whereas catharsis is a sort of upwelling and release of emotional energy and tension, cathexis is a infusion of power and emotional energy into non conscious entities and/or objects. You see it with icons (images of deities), the so called aura of art, and puppetry, as some minor examples. Freud was an idiot savant in that he came up with some much bullshit yet in a few moments in some of his "throwaway" thoughts he came up with some rather extraordinary things. Cathexis is one of those.

Freud saw cathexis as unidirectional, but he was pretty narrow minded like that. If you consider cathexis to be bidirectional, where objects are infused with power and gain power over time (in the sense that power is a 2nd-3rd circuit and up draw) and release it in an opposite direction much like a conversation, then magic makes a bit more sense. Objects, non conscious entities, thoughts, concepts, all of these things can store and generate 2nd-3rd circuit + power and release in a sort of communitory response.

And if this sounds like bullshit mumbo jumbo, it is. Freud thought so. It also isn't.

I could buy into that.  Could that work with personal objects as well, as in something you hold dear, for whatever reason therefore it has more meaning than what was originally intended(like a lucky whatever), or is it more of a focusing of will into art, like paintings or...puppets, I guess...  I dont get that one really.  Was it because puppetry was like theater, or because the puppeteer was controlling the puppet through/with cathexis or whatever?

[Template]

I take it that the mention of puppetry refers to how we treat the puppet as an agent in its own right, rather than a humanoid figure being controlled according to the whim of a puppeteer.  The lucky token holds a smidgen of the owner's belief in his own efficacy.  The making of a magical tool, on the purely psychological level, would be an act of cathexis, if I understand rightly.

[Hangshai]

I take it that the mention of puppetry refers to how we treat the puppet as an agent in its own right, rather than a humanoid figure being controlled according to the whim of a puppeteer.  The lucky token holds a smidgen of the owner's belief in his own efficacy.  The making of a magical tool, on the purely psychological level, would be an act of cathexis, if I understand rightly.

Ok, I think I follow you, you mean the puppet being magical is more for the observer than the puppeteer.

[Kai]

I've got a letter forthcoming about this, so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but....

I learned a term in Toronto. Cathexis. Freud coined it as a opposite to catharsis. Whereas catharsis is a sort of upwelling and release of emotional energy and tension, cathexis is a infusion of power and emotional energy into non conscious entities and/or objects. You see it with icons (images of deities), the so called aura of art, and puppetry, as some minor examples. Freud was an idiot savant in that he came up with some much bullshit yet in a few moments in some of his "throwaway" thoughts he came up with some rather extraordinary things. Cathexis is one of those.

Freud saw cathexis as unidirectional, but he was pretty narrow minded like that. If you consider cathexis to be bidirectional, where objects are infused with power and gain power over time (in the sense that power is a 2nd-3rd circuit and up draw) and release it in an opposite direction much like a conversation, then magic makes a bit more sense. Objects, non conscious entities, thoughts, concepts, all of these things can store and generate 2nd-3rd circuit + power and release in a sort of communitory response.

And if this sounds like bullshit mumbo jumbo, it is. Freud thought so. It also isn't.

I could buy into that.  Could that work with personal objects as well, as in something you hold dear, for whatever reason therefore it has more meaning than what was originally intended(like a lucky whatever), or is it more of a focusing of will into art, like paintings or...puppets, I guess...  I dont get that one really.  Was it because puppetry was like theater, or because the puppeteer was controlling the puppet through/with cathexis or whatever?

Mostly it's just something that humans do without thinking about it. Puppets are fucking creepy things, but many people who are creeped out by them aren't really sure why. It's the unconscious cathexis aspect, that a piece of cloth suddenly is given the power and presence of a living thing. Even if I know intellectually that a puppet is not alive, is just an object, intuitively there will still be cathexis going on. Even if puppets aren't particularly creepy to me, paying attention to the cathexis generally makes it that way (mostly just a mixture of awareness and uncanny valley).

Icons, which are statuary and images of gods, divine beings and holy events, have associated cathexis because of belief. An icon (sometimes called a fetish) may be the physical presence of deity, or a representation, and both of those reasons generate cathexis. This ranges anywhere from the images of Voodun Loa, to depictions of Jesus on the cross, images of the virgin (pareidolia or real), statues of the Buddha (a very interesting example, since the representation is not only of a person but a state of being), holy texts of Islam and Judaism, churches and temples (especially if they are seen as the house of deity), or something as abstract as the metal "primordial egg" sculpture found in several places in the Unitarian Church of Toronto.

The former category often mixes in with the category of aura, that is, objects for aesthetic or other reasons which give off a presence, yet have no inherent significance in relation to religion. Paintings often are said to have an aura; for what other reason would people crowd around the little square of Da Vinci's Mona Lisa? There are certainly prettier paintings. Another reason that objects may have aura is their age. Artifacts and fossils are interesting for what they can tell us about the past, but they also have an aura and presence of age associated, also a sort of cathexis. Otherwise a 2000 year old strip of cloth would just be an old interesting piece of cloth and not something with power to bridge the gap of time....but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I'm sure you can think of other things with cathexis. Certain trees, and old trees in general, not only for their massive size and aesthetic, but for their age. Even concepts can have associated cathexis, if they become physically concrete enough. Certain pieces of writing, like the To Be or Not To Be Soliloquy of Hamlet, have taken on a life beyond just words in a script. I guess you can take the jump of intuition to memes from there, which opens up a /whole other/ can of worms. Like I said earlier, Freud was a real idiot savant in that he didn't realize the incredible usefulness of what he had discovered about the power and aura and /life-like-ness/ humans direct into objects/entities beyond what they are essentially. Just like Chi (psychosomatics), cathexis is not something of passing curiousity to be easily dismissed, it is an essential part of being human.

[Kai]

I take it that the mention of puppetry refers to how we treat the puppet as an agent in its own right, rather than a humanoid figure being controlled according to the whim of a puppeteer.  The lucky token holds a smidgen of the owner's belief in his own efficacy.  The making of a magical tool, on the purely psychological level, would be an act of cathexis, if I understand rightly.

Yes, a puppet is just a bit of cloth, wood and other human shaped materials yet it also has power to be "alive" in some way, and this comes from an emotional/intellectual....arg, trying to think of another way to describe it. Visualize a ray of light beaming from the head of a person to the puppet, amplifying and reflecting back. A projection, amplification and reflection. There's a communication going on, a communication of a this-ness, an is-ness, that is more than what the object essentially is (crafted cellulose).

[Z³]

This is a good place to start.
IMO: Magic is Metaphor.

[Bu🤠ns]

This is interesting.  

I like how you mentioned the tie in to art too, Kai.

Also Jung's interpretation of a mandala as "..a representation of the unconscious self" seems like it's designed to generate a specific kind of cathexis.  

[Bu🤠ns]

I take it that the mention of puppetry refers to how we treat the puppet as an agent in its own right, rather than a humanoid figure being controlled according to the whim of a puppeteer.  The lucky token holds a smidgen of the owner's belief in his own efficacy.  The making of a magical tool, on the purely psychological level, would be an act of cathexis, if I understand rightly.

Yes, a puppet is just a bit of cloth, wood and other human shaped materials yet it also has power to be "alive" in some way, and this comes from an emotional/intellectual....arg, trying to think of another way to describe it. Visualize a ray of light beaming from the head of a person to the puppet, amplifying and reflecting back. A projection, amplification and reflection. There's a communication going on, a communication of a this-ness, an is-ness, that is more than what the object essentially is (crafted cellulose).

I suppose you could throw in talismans into this too:  Wedding bands, rosaries, goetic seals (oh wait, i already mentioned wedding bands), etc...

[Kai]

This is interesting.  

I like how you mentioned the tie in to art too, Kai.

Also Jung's interpretation of a mandala as "..a representation of the unconscious self" seems like it's designed to generate a specific kind of cathexis.  

Oh, DEFINITELY. Objects can be created to generate cathexis (like icons) of a certain type. I think it's interesting that there is this whole genre of phenomena of many different kinds and associations which is overall the same sort of thing at base. Those who believe stronly in magic will dismiss cathexis as scientific reductionism, and the atheistic materialists will dismiss it as vestiges of  superstition, only of passing interest, just like pareidolia, chi and every other artifact of consciousness. So it goes.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Your definition of magic is too broad.

Science is NOT magic.

No, it's quantums and stuff.

[Kai]

I take it that the mention of puppetry refers to how we treat the puppet as an agent in its own right, rather than a humanoid figure being controlled according to the whim of a puppeteer.  The lucky token holds a smidgen of the owner's belief in his own efficacy.  The making of a magical tool, on the purely psychological level, would be an act of cathexis, if I understand rightly.

Yes, a puppet is just a bit of cloth, wood and other human shaped materials yet it also has power to be "alive" in some way, and this comes from an emotional/intellectual....arg, trying to think of another way to describe it. Visualize a ray of light beaming from the head of a person to the puppet, amplifying and reflecting back. A projection, amplification and reflection. There's a communication going on, a communication of a this-ness, an is-ness, that is more than what the object essentially is (crafted cellulose).

I suppose you could throw in talismans into this too:  Wedding bands, rosaries, goetic seals (oh wait, i already mentioned wedding bands), etc...

If you can think of it, it probably can generate cathexis under certain circumstances. ANY object has that possibility, but some objects are more likely to. Hell, there are these old pencils with the name of the gas and service station my great grandfather ran and owned in the mid 20th century, and I have some strong cathexis associated with them.