Fiore's Fighting Techniques from the 1400's - Western Martial Arts n00b style

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So I spent my week at Pennsic working through the fighting manuals of Fiore', a master of the Italian Martial Arts who published in the first decade of the 1400's. Since a number of us have discussed Martial stuff here before, I thought I would start a thread to discuss the concepts, Postas and Guardias of this early Italian Master. He claims the title Master after "40 years of studying the art of arms". The first post here will cover the Guardia/Posta (the Guards and Positions) which Fiore makes clear are the same thing... apparently in the early 1400's people were arguing over the semantics.

First Concepts:

Fiore uses four Heraldic animals as the driving force for his system. Keep in mind that Fiore probably had no idea what these critters were really like, but based their traits on the traditional heraldic meaning of the animal. Considering the Beastiaries of the day, I'm just glad he didn't include unicorns and gryphons.

The Elephant - The first Heraldic animal is the Elephant which represents Stability. every Posta/Guardia must be stable. If you are in the correct position, someone shouldn't be able to simply push you over, even if they're stronger than you. If you are trying to drop an opponent, you must first 'break' his elephant.

The Lynx - The lynx is a symbol of prudence... responding in time with the correct movement. The correct movement sometimes, is running the fuck away. The Lynx becomes most important "at the crosses" which we'll get to later.

The Lion - The Lion is obviously courage... but more than that, the air of courage and fierceness. This has two key elements, first being willing to step in and take the shot necessary without hesitation and second looking fierce so your opponent will hopefully hesitate.

The Tiger - The Tiger is representative of swiftness and speed in motion. Tied with the Lynx, its the speed behind the 'proper posta in the proper time'.

Fiore also wanted a system which simply worked no matter what weapon was in hand. His technique works as unarmed or armed with dagger, stick, longsword, single hand sword, spear, halberd, etc. As this was before the Spada di Roba (Sword of the Robe, later called the rapier), simple thrusts in the line were not common, but rather the thrust was a part of a much broader system. Concepts such as the Lunge didn't exist, as a lunge would make it easy to break your elephant.

Posta/Guardia come in one of three types:

Charged - A Charged guard is one from which you can deliver a full attack or respond with a full defense. The body mechanics should natually be providing a strong stable elephant and have your weapon prepared for attack or defense (cocked and ready as it were).

Stabile - A stable guard is one which gives you good defense and allows you to move easily into a Charged guard. Your weapon may not be cocked, but you should still have your elephant and your weapon should be closing the line between you and your opponent.

Instabile - An instable guard is one which you shouldn't be in for long. It may come at the end of a defensive move, or after a fully spent attack. Instable positions aren't bad, but they should always be brief and you should never hang out in such a posta.

A brief note about footing: In general all of the posta begin and end with the feet in a strongly balanced position. the forward foot should have the toe pointed at the opponent and the rear foot should have the toe pointed slightly offline, your weight should be set on the balls of your feet and you back heel should be slightly off the ground. This is not a fencing stance, its more like if someone hit pause as you were walking.

The Italian Style of fighting in this time period is distinct from some other systems we have documentation for in two ways. First, unlike the German style, the Italian should never begin the play... he should wait and "respond in time" (The German style involves throwing as many shots as possible in as short a time as possible to land something before getting killed). The second difference is the simplicity of movement (the Lynx). Fiore tells us to never throw anything but a blow aimed to kill, other systems involve aiming for anything they can hit (hands, arms, feet etc). He also expects the weapon to do the work, the fighter should simply guide the weapon as inertia actually moves it. This is particularly easy to feel with something like a spear or two handed longsword, but its also part of the unarmed philosophy as well. Hand strikes are more about inertia carrying the force, rather than trying to power through a punch in the more traditional American style of throwing a punch.

The Posta:

Posta di Porto Ferro - The Iron Gate - This is the most stable post. Feet as described above and hands at the front of the body, waist level. Unarmed this is a good defense. Armed, this allows you multiple upward cutting attacks, pivoting the pommel and extending the arms. The weapon, is held point down to the side, parallel with the line of the hips.

Posta Longa - The Long Post - Here one hand is extended further than the other, arm extended. This is an unarmed punch, or an armed thrust. It may also be a grab (taking the wrist as a blow comes down from above).

Posta Frontale - The Frontal Post - Both arms extended, works just like frontale, but with more power, at the cost of some reach. Very good for defense, or grabbing someone by the throat.. its also used in the Dagger Masters as a bind to disarm your opponent.

Posta Dente di Cenghiaro - The Boars Tooth - This generall involves an upward attack which cuts up and in, then tears back out, just like a boar's tusk. Unarmed, its a block or uppercut, armed, its well... terrible.

Posta Fenestra - The Window Guard - This places both hands near the side of the head, if a weapon is in hand, the fighter should be looking under the weapon, between hilt and tip at the opponent (like a window). This is generally instabile and usually happens when you are passing between guards.

Posta di Donna - The Woman's Guard - Think of your longsword like a baseball bat. That's Posta di Donna.

Posta Breva - This is a close-in defense almost always with a weapon, the hands are near the navel, with the weapon guarding the center body and head.

Posta Bicorno - The Horns - This brings your weapon (with quillions) back close to the chest, like Breva, but higher. The idea is to use the quillions like horns, either binding/breaking the opponent's weapon, or thrusting to the face with the quillion.

Posta Coda Longa - The Long Tail - This is like Posta di Porto Ferro, but the weapon is turned all the way back so the point is behind you and your hands are near the hip, rather than the center of the waist. Fiore says this is his favorite posta to thrust from.

All of these posta/guardia can be done from either side, or the center. All guards have a cut which will naturally carry the blade from one to any of the others.

More stuff to follow at some point in the near future!

[Richter]

Right off the bat I love the point that there are some positions it works to pass through, but never to stop in. 
The focus on movements and positions as oppoed to these being dedicated attack / defense  is interesting too, definitely varies from most other descriptions.  This also ends up being accurate, since all kinds of unexpected things happen while sparing.

[Suu]

I'm ticked I missed these classes...stupid sewing classes...

anyways, very useful stuff. General Stuart also managed to find a printed/photocopied version of George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense during Midnight Madness for 6 bucks. Between Silver, Marozzo, Liechtenauer and Fiore, our fighting shall be unstoppable!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Right off the bat I love the point that there are some positions it works to pass through, but never to stop in. 
The focus on movements and positions as oppoed to these being dedicated attack / defense  is interesting too, definitely varies from most other descriptions.  This also ends up being accurate, since all kinds of unexpected things happen while sparing.

Fiore discusses attack and defense but as a function of the movement in time. A thrust is an attack, as is a fendente (cut from teeth to hip or "eye to thigh"), but the fendente also defensively clears the line between your opponent and yourself in case you miss.

So for example you may be in posta di donna (baseball bat) and launch an fendente, because your opponent is in your measure (ie you can hit him) and he doesn't appear to be actively starting an attack. So the blade comes off your shoulder, true edge of the blade forward and arms extended to cut to the teeth and down. If the blow lands, game over. If the opponent voids the blow entirely, the motion of the attack should leave you in a low guardia like dente di chinghara or porto ferro on the other side. These are both charged guards so you can immediately attack again.  Fiore' is much like Morazzo and think once you start swinging the blade you should continue to press your opponent. If however, rather than a void, the opponent blocks your shot, perhaps coming out of porto ferro and up, then your attack is guarding your body (cutting a tight angle across). This brings you 'to the crosses' and all sorts of stuff can happen from there.

If however, you're in posta di donna and the opponent attacks, you can make exactly the same cut, except tight to the body, rather than arms extended and its very defensive, yet still threatening to the opponent, esp if they leaned in with their attack. At best, you clear the shot and can respond, at worst you meet, again, at the crosses.

What has startled me most about Fiore is the similarity between it and Akido or Tai Chi. For example, when you meet at the crosses, perhaps you threw a shot and your opponent blocks, Fiore instructs you to 'collapse' the weapon, basically relax all of your force, and then 'pass' to the side. In short, you stop resisting, allowing the opponents strength to continue the arc of the blade past you, while you step to the side, passing their weapon and freeing yours for a pommel strike, quillion strike, slash to the throat or something like that. He also recommends, passing then grabbing the wrist/hilt of the opponent and pulling in line with the ankles or crossing the line of the hips, both intended to break his elephant and drop him to the ground.

This same sort of choice exists in every posta and every cut between the posta. The skill lies, apparently, in telling what advantage is held by the feel in the instant you meet at the crosses. If you forte or media is against their foible, then you pass and strike, if your foible is against their forte or media then you collapse your blade in a defensive way (the Fenestra guards are particularly useful to fall into even though they are instable and shouldn't be held for long).

It's all in the Lynx

[Richter]

I see, very similar to the German as far as basic positions, but expresses the dynamics of it all better than the fechtbutch.

I was actually comparing it to the Aikido also on the grounds of it's using allot of the same things armed / unarmed.  From the little Aikido I've had, I was struck by how often a strike might as well have been with a sword.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Fiore has a whole piece dedicated to unarmed combat called Abrazare. Often the edge of the hand or the outside edge of the forearm are used just like a blade in cuts and the palm seems used more like a thrust. Though much of the Joko Stretto involves binds and breaks rather than punches. It's also interesting to me that he doesn't show anything like cocking your fist for a blow, rather you may Increase your pace, sort of stepping in front of your hand then launching the strike or grab. It's very fluid, and seems better than drawing back and making the attack obvious like an American punch to the face. 


So to make use of these Posta, we link them together in the right time and measure. Each flowing from one to the next.

So a Play:

The Attacker is lying in the charged guard Coda Longa.

The Defender is lying in the charged guard Porto Ferro.

The Attacker now uses Fiore's favorte thrust, he pivots the pommel so that the blade point arcs over the shoulder (not away from the body, but a verticle move) and as the tip begins to move forward of the body he steps forward into longa making the thrust. Combined with his Increased Step this provides a huge area of reach.

The Defender sees the point coming, lucky guy, and cuts a tight reverse fendente (hip to eye) up to Sultana. The idea here is to come up fast and let the blade's inerta catch the thrusting blade near its foible. Done correctly, that will throw the blade far off line.

The Attacker feels the momemt they are at the crosses and knows that he's hit steel and won't make the shot. He uses the force of the defenders strike to redirect his blade up and back into Posta di Donna, from which he can now cut a fendente down on his opponent... OUTSIDE of the line protected by the Sultana.

The Defender however, has studied his Longsword and knows that he shouldn't hang out in Sultana, because the blade has already been deflected in that direction. So he quickly reverses, swivling the blade into a Sultana on the opposite line, just in time to catch that fendente his opponent is throwing. Lucky Bastard.

The Attacker hits steel again, according to Fiore, that means he has underestimated his opponent twice and may want to take a moment to run the fuck away. Sadly, this isn't his day.

As soon as the Defender finds himself at the crosses in the Sultana this time, he's ready, when the blade hits, he collapses, relaxes the wrists and takes a step forward on that side of the opponent, The attackers blade slides down and away as the Defender can now step in with a quick pommel to the face, or with a bind to the arm, or if he's an asshole, he could press the opponents blade down, and pull it right from his pried open fingers.

All of that in one flowing set of posta and guardia intermixed

[Cain]

This may be of interest http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

[Suu]

ARMA.



GS picked up George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense at Pennsic. It's just out of period, but I don't care because I don't think rapier combat changed much in 3 years time. Then again, we fight with schlager blades. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

ARMA.



GS picked up George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense at Pennsic. It's just out of period, but I don't care because I don't think rapier combat changed much in 3 years time. Then again, we fight with schlager blades. 

ARMA is always awesome

Also, I like Silver's stuff for normal SCA combat, I think it's a lot more applicable, since percussive cuts are not permitted in game. Silver focuses a lot more on the point than Fiore, since they're at opposite ends of the Cut and Thrust movement. (Early sword technique was largely cut, later sword technique is largely thrust).

The first styles I sutdied were Di Grassi and Capo Ferro, but of which translate about 75% to SCA combat. I think Silver is slightly more applicable, but then several of the Bronze Rings here in Midrealm find his work leaves a lot to be desired.

Apparently there are other extant works, some in English which have not been republished because no one knows what the hell the authors are talking about... lines like "and then the attacker will play the bird"... leaves modern translators at a loss. We know it has something to do with a sword, but likely only the Masters students who had trained with him would know his posta lingo.

Intellectual Property Security by Obscurity 

[Cain]

Yeah, I found ARMA ages ago but it is, of course, an American organisation and there is nothing really like it in the UK (there is nothing really like SCA either, outside a few historical recreation societies, which are small in number and mostly dont mix with each others groups) so I never really followed up on it much.  But as a historical resource into western martial arts, I found it to be pretty damn good, and thought I should give them a plug.

[Suu]

ARMA.



GS picked up George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense at Pennsic. It's just out of period, but I don't care because I don't think rapier combat changed much in 3 years time. Then again, we fight with schlager blades. 

ARMA is always awesome

Also, I like Silver's stuff for normal SCA combat, I think it's a lot more applicable, since percussive cuts are not permitted in game. Silver focuses a lot more on the point than Fiore, since they're at opposite ends of the Cut and Thrust movement. (Early sword technique was largely cut, later sword technique is largely thrust).

The first styles I sutdied were Di Grassi and Capo Ferro, but of which translate about 75% to SCA combat. I think Silver is slightly more applicable, but then several of the Bronze Rings here in Midrealm find his work leaves a lot to be desired.

Apparently there are other extant works, some in English which have not been republished because no one knows what the hell the authors are talking about... lines like "and then the attacker will play the bird"... leaves modern translators at a loss. We know it has something to do with a sword, but likely only the Masters students who had trained with him would know his posta lingo.

Intellectual Property Security by Obscurity 

...We're the black sheep of the East Kingdom Fencing Academies.  We follow rules, but we uh...well we don't fight like pansies so they hate us for it. Plus we want to move into Cut and Thrust, so people are getting all sorts of uppity.

"LIVE STEEL IN A MEDIEVAL RECREATION CLUB?! INCONCEIVABLE!"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, I found ARMA ages ago but it is, of course, an American organisation and there is nothing really like it in the UK (there is nothing really like SCA either, outside a few historical recreation societies, which are small in number and mostly dont mix with each others groups) so I never really followed up on it much.  But as a historical resource into western martial arts, I found it to be pretty damn good, and thought I should give them a plug.

The SCA is in England In fact the SCA is worldwide... just not as large as it is in the US. (Australia is it's own Kingdom now, Europe has been for decades)

Here's an additional set of links to Western Martial Arts info and groups (including a couple in England). According to several of the people I know who are hardcore WMA, The UK and Europe are where the seriously serious fighting and training happens.




http://www.sca.org/officers/arts/histcombat.html

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Interestingly there's a discussion of Silver going on right now on one of the WMA mailing lists. The OP was discussing the development of a curriculum based on Sliver. William Wilson (one of the undisputed Masters of Defence in the US and a major WMA resource) stated the following:

First and foremost it must be understood tht Silver is not a rapier master and was not even a master. He stood apart from the London Masters of Defense. Silver was a gentleman and was promoting the old school military and quasi military style of English combat. His style would have been used more by the military and sword & buckler men of the time period that anyone else.

Although Silver's book has been touted as one of the "three Elizabethan Masters" it stands separate from Saviolo and Di Grassi. And Di Grassi's book is not even Elizabethan. The original Italian was published approximately 1570 and stands in a long line of "sidesword" books.

A system of combat that would be closer to Silver's would be the combat taught in the early Dardi school such as that shown in Manciolino's treatise.

A proper sword for Silver's method would be a baskethilted broadsword or even a standard cross-hilted arming sword. But not a rapier.