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[The Fundamentalist]

I think that it's been pretty well established that consciousness precludes logical thinking.  Just because you're using a logical machine (the computer) to run it, that doesn't mean the thing itself is logical.

Of course machines are inheritly made dumb its all the instructions we feed it, it might look logical to us but it was just made using another persons logic.

So for a machine to be self-conscious it would have to be able to learn ... I don't agree with a learning machine like that.

*eta* I missed a word oops

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

We already have learning machines.  I've even programmed one.  Artificial neural networks aren't too hard.

I mentioned that I hate Descartes, right?

If you are willing to concede  that there is NOT some omnipotent demon creating a false world for you, and you are sure you are conscious, then it follows that the other things that are your species, act as smart or smarter than you, and have roughly the same genetic makeup as you, they are VERY likely to be conscious.  Beyond reasonable doubt.   That said, how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt that a non-human, let alone a non-animal, is conscious?

They act like humans do?

[BabylonHoruv]

I mentioned that I hate Descartes, right?

If you are willing to concede  that there is NOT some omnipotent demon creating a false world for you, and you are sure you are conscious, then it follows that the other things that are your species, act as smart or smarter than you, and have roughly the same genetic makeup as you, they are VERY likely to be conscious.  Beyond reasonable doubt.   That said, how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt that a non-human, let alone a non-animal, is conscious?

If it acts as if it is.  Which was exactly my point.

Incidentally, by that reasoning, most higher mammals are conscious.

[Jasper]

What do you mean you don't agree with a learning machine, notpublished?   Like, on principle? They already exist.

Computers act on logic, but a true consciousness would probably operate more... Stochastically.

[Jasper]

I'll be back when I'm not typing on a touchscren. Battery is dying.

[NotPublished]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

We already have learning machines.  I've even programmed one.  Artificial neural networks aren't too hard

Sorry I wasn't very clear,

If a machine has the potential to learn things to alter its own behavioural pattern - I am not comfortable with that idea. Its like opening up MS Word and it tells you to Go Fuck Yourself because it doesn't want to be a slave to you anymore (That would mean that it also feels emotion).

But if a machine can learn patterns to assist with its main intent, then of course that will be beneficial. Its like having predicive text on when SMSing. I can't use the shit but my sister does and she writes too fast.

[Jasper]

Then it's all about instinct, isn't it?  Our instincts tell us what hurts, what is dangerous, when to eat, sleep, crap, have sex, raise kids, protect other people, and other kinds of things.  But these particular instincts do not have much relevance to a non-organism that was made for a purpose.

Part of the trick in working out machine consciousness is to work out machine instincts, it seems.

[Elder Iptuous]

Felix,
what do you think about the thought experiment of gradual replacement of the brain with neural prosthesis?
when does the 'being human' stop?
and does the sense of continuum of the subject prove that it is currently 'conscious'?

incidentally, what is the current state of the art in neural prosthesis?  i recall hearing about some brain structures being able to be rudimentarilly replaced with prosthesis in the near to medium future. and that was a good while ago..

[Jasper]

I believe that we are human insofar as we are humane.  There are surely medical, philosophical, or scientific definitions, but to me that is the only relevant one.

Neural prosthesis, while enjoying something of a renaissance currently, has not yielded anything marketable.  They've gotten blind people to see blobs of light, they've gotten poor quality video feeds from cat brains, they've got deep brain stimulation, the uses of which are being researched, and nerve-controlled cybernetics are on the horizon.

[Elder Iptuous]

i've read about all of those, but they don't actually replace any parts of the brain which may become damaged...

however, it does raise the question of if one has their brain augmented continuously to the point that their wet brain becomes insignificant relatively....

[Jasper]

Oh, those.  There's not much, but there's a brief on wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroprosthetics#Cognitive_prostheses

Mostly it's stuff to remedy brain problems, as opposed to adding functionality.

[Elder Iptuous]

ya.
that's closer to the mark.  still crude, but they 'replace' parts of the brain.  presume that we will eventually have a repertoire of prosthesis that comprises every part of the brain...

[NotPublished]

That makes you think - also if they manage to transmute a person into a series of 1's and 0's and transfer them to another location then reform them - will they still have the same 'consciousness'?

Or is it effectively a form of death and rebirth?

[Jasper]

That makes you think - also if they manage to transmute a person into a series of 1's and 0's and transfer them to another location then reform them - will they still have the same 'consciousness'?

Or is it effectively a form of death and rebirth?

If consciousness is some kind of mental process, halting then continuing it from where it left off (assuming perfect preservation and resuming of mental states) should not be noticeable.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm all for confused robots, but maybe they should only experience as much emotional turmoil as your average person. The point of emotion is to provide instinctual insurance against bloodymindedness (read: HAL), so the crippling levels of stress and despair perhaps are unneeded.

Wait, your average person doesn't experience those?

[Jasper]

I don't, except in unusually stressful situations.  Normal situations generally evoke moderate emotional sensations.