MAKE MONEY TELLING STUPID PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, SRSLY.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So there's a difference in ethical views, Nigel has a view, Lys ahas a view... why the fuck do either of you care? It's not like any of us usually agree on shit (if we did I would run screaming... MLA has enough of that  ).

Personally, I'm split. On the one hand I don't like scams that take advantage of people. On the other hand, I agree with J.R. Bob Dobbs about separating the Pinks from their green. So I'm gonna tell a story and leave it at that.

My grandmother was a Christian and she hated the fact that my Dad had become a JW. So she told him he was gonna go to hell. Dad tried to explain to her that "hell" as a place of everlasting torment wasn't supported by scripture, that it was a belief added centuries after Christs death etc. and then Grandma said a single line:

"If I can't believe that my father is burning in Hell, I wouldn't worship God". (My great-grandfather was a very bad person).

Later she was upset about Christmas and Dad again said "It's not in the Bible, his birthday isn't even in December." She replied that she would prove it. So she asked her preacher who laughed at her and said that my Dad was right. So Grandma said, "But, that's what I WILL believe."

The monkeys want to believe what they want to believe, if they want to believe in psychic powers, tarot, astrology or whatever... then they will. If that's what helps them cope with their existence, even if its false (like Grandma's views on her Dad...) then it's better than her molesting kids like he did... or killing herself. Some people need the wool over their eyes because they can't survive seeing the light.

If Lys gives them what they want/need then it doesn't matter to me if he thinks they're smart, dumb, cool, lame or just another mark. It's their choice, their reality tunnel.

Besides, 'what's wrong with that, if its what they want to do?'

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect, as a companion to the appearance of contempt, that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.

Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.

Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.

You,?! in favor of arguing on the Net? Come on Nigel, I'm shocked!! That's as crazy as claiming I'm for arguing on the Net...   

I guess I can see the possible ethical issues with bilking people out of money... but I don't see the ethical issues around telling others how to do it too... In fact, if Lys knew how to seperate a Pink from their Green and kept it a secret from the rest of us, I'd have a ethical problem with that... Share and Share alike! 

In all honesty, FWIW, I think I'd rather have the bleating hoards fed cold readings from Lys than many/most of the 'psychics' I know around Columbus. At least he hasn't fooled himself about what he's doing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.

Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.

You,?! in favor of arguing on the Net? Come on Nigel, I'm shocked!! That's as crazy as claiming I'm for arguing on the Net...   

I guess I can see the possible ethical issues with bilking people out of money... but I don't see the ethical issues around telling others how to do it too... In fact, if Lys knew how to seperate a Pink from their Green and kept it a secret from the rest of us, I'd have a ethical problem with that... Share and Share alike! 

In all honesty, FWIW, I think I'd rather have the bleating hoards fed cold readings from Lys than many/most of the 'psychics' I know around Columbus. At least he hasn't fooled himself about what he's doing.

But the part you're missing is that if he wasn't proselytizing for it, I'd have nothing to argue against, so it would all be a moot point.

Post it on the net and there's a basis for discussion, right? And it would be naive of all of us to think that everyone's going to agree with any given thing anyone posts. Let's hearken back to when Lys really, really wanted to help people by telling them how he picks up chicks and gets laid. It got old for some people and they started calling him on it, but if he'd simply gone about his business of picking up chicks and getting laid without trying to proselytize or brag or whatever he was doing, I doubt anyone would have ever had anything to say about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about incorporating it more into my act and turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.

Just as an example. The thread is riddled with them, as are other threads. And then there was a lot of backpedaling.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.

I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.

I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.

You're actually not any kind of a barometer at all for how other people feel about things. Doesn't bother you - fine. Someone else thinks it's bullshit, says so.

Also, you've defended things like magick and tarot in the past, have you not? I assume from this that you don't think it's entirely bullshit, which puts you in a different ethical category from someone who doesn't only think it's bullshit, but KNOWS it's bullshit, and misleads people for money consciously.

I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately, and I don't agree with the principle of dehumanizing people to make it feel OK to take advantage of their weaknesses and frailties. Lys, in what I see as backpedaling, argues that he wasn't doing that. I can quote phrases that definitely read that way, which he says were tongue in cheek. I say that I'm not very credulous of that right now but over time that may change. That's all.

[Salty]

Taking money from by people by getting them to believe things that may or may not be true is the root of all advertising, isn't it? One might say the advertising industry is the pinnacle of this trade.

I tend to look on the advertising industry with disgust, but only because the Machine that it has become doesn't care what gets caught in its gears. And that's really the main point:

Do you care at all if your actions lead to fucking people in the ass for petty profits? Or large profits? Will you convince people to consume poison so you can afford a third Bently? Or are you using the same techniques to sell certified good?

Almost everyone who runs a business has to advertise one way or another, and sometimes you have to bullshit people into buying your product even if it IS good, even if it does help them and you believe in it wholly.

It's all about intent.

Or what about photoshopping porn? Or beauty magazines?
Can you imagine someone doing that and cackling with laughter over the stupids who are gonna fap to some figment? Or is that person trying to make ends meet?

[Cain]

I didn't know JWs didn't believe in hell.  Or if I did, I forgot.  Which is odd, because one of my best friends at school, and a girl I had a MAJOR crush on were both JWs, and so I know loads of useless trivia about the religion.

Now I'm worried what else I've forgotten.

Also, this thread now at the stage of irreducible, duelling doxa.  Srsly.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.

I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.

You're actually not any kind of a barometer at all for how other people feel about things. Doesn't bother you - fine. Someone else thinks it's bullshit, says so.

Also, you've defended things like magick and tarot in the past, have you not? I assume from this that you don't think it's entirely bullshit, which puts you in a different ethical category from someone who doesn't only think it's bullshit, but KNOWS it's bullshit, and misleads people for money consciously.

I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately, and I don't agree with the principle of dehumanizing people to make it feel OK to take advantage of their weaknesses and frailties. Lys, in what I see as backpedaling, argues that he wasn't doing that. I can quote phrases that definitely read that way, which he says were tongue in cheek. I say that I'm not very credulous of that right now but over time that may change. That's all.

For me tarot etc are just mind toys... I don't think they have any super powers. And I'm cool with you voicing your opinion, I was just voicing mine as well.

Ethically speaking, I would prefer that 'psychics' havce Lys' point of view, rather than the view that its True. At least Lys knows he's personally responsible for what he tells the client... those people that think the Tarot is really really for realz gonna Tell Them Something are far more dangerous IMO.

Cain, CT Russell used to have headlines written about him in newspapers like "Pastor Russell Turns the Hose on Hell". Anti-Hell has been a JW standard belief since before they were called JW's.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Taking money from by people by getting them to believe things that may or may not be true is the root of all advertising, isn't it? One might say the advertising industry is the pinnacle of this trade.

I tend to look on the advertising industry with disgust, but only because the Machine that it has become doesn't care what gets caught in its gears. And that's really the main point:

Do you care at all if your actions lead to fucking people in the ass for petty profits? Or large profits? Will you convince people to consume poison so you can afford a third Bently? Or are you using the same techniques to sell certified good?

Almost everyone who runs a business has to advertise one way or another, and sometimes you have to bullshit people into buying your product even if it IS good, even if it does help them and you believe in it wholly.

It's all about intent.

Or what about photoshopping porn? Or beauty magazines?
Can you imagine someone doing that and cackling with laughter over the stupids who are gonna fap to some figment? Or is that person trying to make ends meet?

I pretty much agree with all of this. Even (especially) the questions. And I appreciate the dialogue.

I advertise the shit out of my beads. A boss I had some time back told me "There are three fundamental elements in advertising. One: Show people your product. Two: Show why it's appealing/useful. Three: Tell them where they can get it. Anything more than that is wasted effort".

I completely agree with that guy. In a lot of cases, advertising is full of lies and shysterism and psychological manipulation... and in a lot of cases it isn't. Corporate advertising as an industry, I would say, is probably evil or borderline evil because of the pervasive psychological manipulation that permeates our entire culture. "You can't be happy without white teeth!"

On the other hand, Suu makes antique-style clothing for those festival thingies. Her advertising would be more like "Hey, if you are planning to go to that festival, I have this thing that will be fun to wear!"

Photoshopping porn makes prettier images (depending on your tastes). There are larger ethical ramifications to the entire porn industry that could be discussed at length, including the issue of making women look unnaturally "perfect" etc etc blah blah blah, but the porn photoshopper is pretty definitely not thinking about how they're making a living through deception... nor are they, in fact, being deceptive. The end buyer is paying for images. The photoshopper is doing a job in the assembly line of producing those images.

[Captain Utopia]

I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately

I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability.  Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?

[Doktor Howl]

I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately

I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability.  Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?

I have no idea what the fuck either one of you is talking about.   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately

I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability.  Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?

1. I'm not sure we'll ever really get there, but when we become aware of it, it's possible to at least back up off a bit.
2. Yes, IMO it is. And that ties into awareness, as well.

3. We all exhibit all of the above behaviors to varying degrees at times. Like whatever the hell that book is that I'm thinking of says, "Enlightenment is only good once." It's a continuing process.

[Captain Utopia]

I have no idea what the fuck either one of you is talking about.   

I'm not going to try to speak for Nigel.  But to me, calling someone, or a group of people "sheep", is satisfying but doesn't address their behaviour or robotic responses in any positive way which is likely to elicit change.  There have been more rants/riffs lately which don't discriminate between the actor and the action, and while it's not always desirable to precisely delineate between the two, the danger of becoming unbalanced in this regard is to get trapped in ones own rhetoric.