MAKE MONEY TELLING STUPID PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, SRSLY.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...

Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?

Where?

In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.

Or maybe they are -crazy idea- relating what the standard meanings of the cards are?  Sounds nutso, I know, but yes some people know what the meanings (multiple and many-layered meanings) of the cards are, and are able to explain them to someone who knows nothing about the cards.

How insane!

One does not need to believe they are psychic to read tarot cards.  The cards have standard meanings and it is the job of the reader to simply interpret or translate the meaning.

Why do you assume an OR there Hoops?

I grasp the 'meanings' of the cards, I've taken a few classes from guys like Lon Milo. However, I have yet to see a tarot reader simply explain the archetypal references and the symbolic meanings, without drawing conclusions for the customer, which appear almost indistinguishable from cold reading... Indeed, it often appears that they explaain a symbol and the person volunteers information which they wrap into the interpretation.

Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.

Even Lon seems to think this is how it works, even if the reader doesn't realize it.

[Doktor Howl]

I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?

I now have in my head a mental image, entitled:

"THE MAD SCIENTIST PEER REVIEW BOARD"

Despite my recent death, I am still, after all, a professional.

[Doktor Howl]

Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.

So, basically, you're asking me to NOT believe in actual psychic ability on the same evidence as the psychics ask me TO believe it, which is "none at all".

[hooplala]

Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...

Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?

Where?

In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.

Or maybe they are -crazy idea- relating what the standard meanings of the cards are?  Sounds nutso, I know, but yes some people know what the meanings (multiple and many-layered meanings) of the cards are, and are able to explain them to someone who knows nothing about the cards.

How insane!

One does not need to believe they are psychic to read tarot cards.  The cards have standard meanings and it is the job of the reader to simply interpret or translate the meaning.

Why do you assume an OR there Hoops?

I grasp the 'meanings' of the cards, I've taken a few classes from guys like Lon Milo. However, I have yet to see a tarot reader simply explain the archetypal references and the symbolic meanings, without drawing conclusions for the customer, which appear almost indistinguishable from cold reading... Indeed, it often appears that they explaain a symbol and the person volunteers information which they wrap into the interpretation.

Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.

Even Lon seems to think this is how it works, even if the reader doesn't realize it.

When I read cards for people, which is admittedly not often, I always and only explain what each card is thought to mean.  I leave whatever interpretations the listener might make up to them.  To do anything more seems dishonest to me, since I know I have zero psychic ability, and I don't believe the cards do either.  That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy working with them.

The moral implications of your and Lys's arguments in this regard are staggering to consider.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.

So, basically, you're asking me to NOT believe in actual psychic ability on the same evidence as the psychics ask me TO believe it, which is "none at all".

Absolutely not. I'm not asking you to believe in anything. I am simply telling you my observations of my subjective experience. Could some people have psychic powers, sure. Could those people use the tarot to perform psychic feats, sure. However, after studying the tarot, reading the Book of Thoth and Lon Milo DuQuette's book on understanding the Book of Thoth, and after using the Tarot myself and watching many other tarot readers at work, I think my subjective observations have some value.

I'm not claiming that ALL tarot readers do this, only that the ones I've observed seem to do that.


Hoops,

That's great, then what I just said doesn't apply to you. I use the cards similarly, but only for myself. I find that if I try to use them for someone else, its easy to shade the view with my own views.

But, ah, I wouldn't say its "what the cards tell me", would you?

[hooplala]

Christ no.

I say its what they are whispering to me.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Christ no.

I say its what they are whispering to me.

touche!

[LMNO]

Could some people have psychic powers, sure.

Maybe it's just me, but that sentence holds a tremendous amount of "maybe".  

Because no one can really offer an explanation, or a decent way of either defining of clinically testing "psychic powers", that sentence has about the same meaning as "Could dragons exist, sure."

For me.

[Salty]

I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?

I now have in my head a mental image, entitled:

"THE MAD SCIENTIST PEER REVIEW BOARD"

Ask and ye shall receive:

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The moral implications of your and Lys's arguments in this regard are staggering to consider.

I want to go back to this for a second. I don't see much of a moral implication in what I'm claiming... so maybe I should clarify:

There appears to be several different ways that people 'read tarot'.

1) The people that really, really believe that the tarot is a sacred deck handed down from ancient Egyptian times holds the ability to unveil the future. These people read the symbols as truth. They seem deluded to me. Sadly many Thelemics fall here, much to the chagrin of that poor old sod Crowley

2) The people that are scam artists. They know they're bullshitting.

3) The people that consider the tarot as a set of symbols which are useful for a sort of guided self-reflection or introspection.

4) The people that seem genuinely interested in using the cards to help people but (in my opinion, based on my observations) appear to be subconsciously using them to draw out the customers thoughts which get repackaged and handed back... I don't think this is always or even often an intentional act. After all, digging into the subconscious is precisely what a complex ritual (like a spread) is designed to do, if we assume M=GL(1-A)(1-R)

Could some people have psychic powers, sure.

Maybe it's just me, but that sentence holds a tremendous amount of "maybe".  

Because no one can really offer an explanation, or a decent way of either defining of clinically testing "psychic powers", that sentence has about the same meaning as "Could dragons exist, sure."

For me.

I'm glad, because that's exactly how I feel... there is a tremendous amount of Maybe attached to any phenomena which isn't easily measured in an objective way. I have no problem leaving the hunchback there until I find a way to drill him into a solider.

[LMNO]

I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M?  Sure."

I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M?  Sure."

I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.

Ah, I intended it to be more like "Is the likelihood greater than Absolute 0?"

EDIT:

To be clear, I think there are a lot of natural phenomena which we don't yet understand and may appear to the people experiencing it as 'psychic'. Not that it necessarily IS supernatural in any way, only that it seems supernatural and uses some medium we can't yet measure or haven't yet identified. Or, maybe there is 'psychic powers' I don't know, but I haven't seen any examples that made me feel strongly that there MUST be psychic powers... some experiences I've had did lead me to consider the possibility though.

[LMNO]

That's sloppy of you.  Since you often model using the sliding scale of Truth, you need to clarify where on that scale you're putting you statements.

[hooplala]

Eeek!  IANAR is on the board??  I quit!

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M?  Sure."

I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.

I get the impression that "the paranormal", like "philosophy", is this kind of limbo area in which people shove things that are not yet sufficiently describe by science, and then pull them out once science sufficiently describes them. The stuff that currently constitutes, say, ESP, I expect to be pulled out and explained piecemeal, and then immediately taken out of the running for indicating ESP -- "well, sure you can navigate a crowded unfamiliar room blindfolded -- you have an internal compass and can sense your body's electromagnetic field like most mammals", "well, sure you can determine what a stranger is feeling from across the room -- microexpresssions!" If all tarot ever was was cold reading and pretty cards, that doesn't make it bunk -- that makes it cold reading and pretty cards, which work as well as they have ever worked.