Yet another healthcare topic

[Cain]

I suspect Kai would rather a system that essentially wasn't a free handout to the very same companies who made healthcare unaffordable for many Americans in the first place.  I mean, while undoubtedly cheaper and causing less dead bodies, this is essentially Obama's variation on the Iraq war: a massive, taxpayer funded orgy of cash for his political backers.

The White House and Senate were angling to kill the public option from the go, however, so that alternative was never going to fly. Even so, it was the best option, and this bill doesn't reflect that, or the views of most Americans.  While it's certainly better than nothing, compared to what it could've been, it isn't a very good bill.

[LMNO]

What exactly does the bill accomplish? I've tried looking it up but cannot find a explanation without rampant bias.

Instead of providing healthcare at some sort of reasonable cost through taxes or funding, all US citizens are required to get health insurance from a private insurance company.  If you're too poor, the Gvt will give you a partial subsidy, unless you want your plan to cover abortions.  If you have a pre-existing condition, you will be given a choice of providers that must accept you regardless of your condition.


Please note that there are no measures to actually control costs; the "plan" is that by adding another 30 million or so people to the pool, the "market forces" will drive down the price of health insurance.


Please also note that we have already seen what "market forces" can do when left unchecked.

[Doktor Howl]

I suspect Kai would rather a system that essentially wasn't a free handout to the very same companies who made healthcare unaffordable for many Americans in the first place.  I mean, while undoubtedly cheaper and causing less dead bodies, this is essentially Obama's variation on the Iraq war: a massive, taxpayer funded orgy of cash for his political backers.

The White House and Senate were angling to kill the public option from the go, however, so that alternative was never going to fly. Even so, it was the best option, and this bill doesn't reflect that, or the views of most Americans.  While it's certainly better than nothing, compared to what it could've been, it isn't a very good bill.

Walk before you run.  While I can see that the bill has some odious components to it, at least catastrophic caps and pre-existing conditions have been removed.

[Doktor Howl]

Please note that there are no measures to actually control costs; the "plan" is that by adding another 30 million or so people to the pool, the "market forces" will drive down the price of health insurance.

Disregard previous comment.  This blows ass.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Please note that there are no measures to actually control costs; the "plan" is that by adding another 30 million or so people to the pool, the "market forces" will drive down the price of health insurance.

Disregard previous comment.  This blows ass.

See, now I'm mad about it now that I know this.



Earlier today one of the token conservatives at this school started on me with how we're totally fucked now that the bill passed. I have quietly put up with this guy for a while, but 8 AM was a bit too early so I snapped back that if we've managed to survive 9 years of war profiteering, jingoism, and faith-based government activity, we can survive this shit.

What I didn't say was that I don't particularly care if money gets taken away from people who think the Iraq War was a good idea, or who think that the solution to every international problem is to "bomb them back to the Stone Age", if it means hardworking, worthy people that I know and care about can get some goddamn health care.

Cainad,
grumpy and not to be reasoned with on this rainy morning

[Doktor Howl]

Please note that there are no measures to actually control costs; the "plan" is that by adding another 30 million or so people to the pool, the "market forces" will drive down the price of health insurance.

Disregard previous comment.  This blows ass.

See, now I'm mad about it now that I know this.



Earlier today one of the token conservatives at this school started on me with how we're totally fucked now that the bill passed. I have quietly put up with this guy for a while, but 8 AM was a bit too early so I snapped back that if we've managed to survive 9 years of war profiteering, jingoism, and faith-based government activity, we can survive this shit.

What I didn't say was that I don't particularly care if money gets taken away from people who think the Iraq War was a good idea, or who think that the solution to every international problem is to "bomb them back to the Stone Age", if it means hardworking, worthy people that I know and care about can get some goddamn health care.

Cainad,
grumpy and not to be reasoned with on this rainy morning

But that's not how it's going to work.

The GOP must be hugging themselves in glee.  Their buddies just got a handout, AND they get to whimper and shriek.

[LMNO]

However, you have to consider that the majority of people already have health insurance.  This bill doesn't affect them.  It doesn't force them to join a government-run plan, it won't drive their rates rates up (usually taken out of their paycheck before they even see it), and they won't even notice it.  It just puts more people on the Insurance Company rolls that weren't there before, and were using the Emergency Room as primary care, which does drive up costs.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Please note that there are no measures to actually control costs; the "plan" is that by adding another 30 million or so people to the pool, the "market forces" will drive down the price of health insurance.

Disregard previous comment.  This blows ass.

See, now I'm mad about it now that I know this.



Earlier today one of the token conservatives at this school started on me with how we're totally fucked now that the bill passed. I have quietly put up with this guy for a while, but 8 AM was a bit too early so I snapped back that if we've managed to survive 9 years of war profiteering, jingoism, and faith-based government activity, we can survive this shit.

What I didn't say was that I don't particularly care if money gets taken away from people who think the Iraq War was a good idea, or who think that the solution to every international problem is to "bomb them back to the Stone Age", if it means hardworking, worthy people that I know and care about can get some goddamn health care.

Cainad,
grumpy and not to be reasoned with on this rainy morning

But that's not how it's going to work.

The GOP must be hugging themselves in glee.  Their buddies just got a handout, AND they get to whimper and shriek.

Yeah, I know. And the GOP voter base is still angry enough about it to continue being against everything the Dems put forward.

In what way has the GOP not won this round?

[Suu]

However, you have to consider that the majority of people already have health insurance.  This bill doesn't affect them.  It doesn't force them to join a government-run plan, it won't drive their rates rates up (usually taken out of their paycheck before they even see it), and they won't even notice it.  It just puts more people on the Insurance Company rolls that weren't there before, and were using the Emergency Room as primary care, which does drive up costs.

This.

I for one will at least have the option to go to a real doctor as long as I don't have insurance through my workplace. Hospital costs > office costs. And they can't turn me down because I'm asthmatic.

Maybe I have a less-spitting POV on this because it's actually going to benefit me, and when I no longer need state-aided care, I don't have to worry about it anymore. Yes, I have to join a private company, but if the feds do subsidize it or I'm offered reasonable rates for reasonable care that I can afford, then the bill did it's job.

We're still a capitalist country, the insurance providers are still going to be making a buck, but now they can't be as picky about who they cover.

[Cain]

The problem of cost containment is one which is being totally ignored by Congress currently.  Partly because Congress (and, it seems, the economy) runs on a whole load of Clap Your Hands If You Believe and partly because Fuck You, We're Congress, That's Why.

Also, this health care plan was based on Nixon's health care plan.  Yeah.  While some conservative commentators are probably going to look stupid, bringing that up so soon after the Death Panel nonsense, it will be mentioned should the scheme be wildly successful or popular in any way. 

[Jenne]

However, you have to consider that the majority of people already have health insurance.  This bill doesn't affect them.  It doesn't force them to join a government-run plan, it won't drive their rates rates up (usually taken out of their paycheck before they even see it), and they won't even notice it.  It just puts more people on the Insurance Company rolls that weren't there before, and were using the Emergency Room as primary care, which does drive up costs.

This.

I for one will at least have the option to go to a real doctor as long as I don't have insurance through my workplace. Hospital costs > office costs. And they can't turn me down because I'm asthmatic.

Maybe I have a less-spitting POV on this because it's actually going to benefit me, and when I no longer need state-aided care, I don't have to worry about it anymore. Yes, I have to join a private company, but if the feds do subsidize it or I'm offered reasonable rates for reasonable care that I can afford, then the bill did it's job.

We're still a capitalist country, the insurance providers are still going to be making a buck, but now they can't be as picky about who they cover.

Exactly, Suu.  I have 2 brothers who are covered by their work policies but the out-of-pocket expenses to fund their families on same insurance plan means their wives and children GO WITHOUT.  How fucked up is that?  Now that the prices will be going down and the mandate is going through, the insurance companies will be funding those wives and children.

This also means adult children can go back on their parents' policies, so that the adult children with cancer and other huge-ass medical bills their parents are putting their houses in hock to pay for can get some assistance as well.

This bill is not perfect by a long shot, but it's better than nothing.  Period.

[Jenne]

The problem of cost containment is one which is being totally ignored by Congress currently.  Partly because Congress (and, it seems, the economy) runs on a whole load of Clap Your Hands If You Believe and partly because Fuck You, We're Congress, That's Why.

Also, this health care plan was based on Nixon's health care plan.  Yeah.  While some conservative commentators are probably going to look stupid, bringing that up so soon after the Death Panel nonsense, it will be mentioned should the scheme be wildly successful or popular in any way. 

We have to start somewhere.  You see how up in arms the red part of the country is over this half-assed thing?  Can you imagine trying to pass something that was less fucked up?

I'm bitter that this is probably the only so called "reform" I voted Obama in for that is going to be passed.

We can forget pulling out of Iraq's ass and Gitmo being closed, I fear.

[LMNO]

Also, this health care plan was based on Nixon's health care plan.  Yeah.  While some conservative commentators are probably going to look stupid, bringing that up so soon after the Death Panel nonsense, it will be mentioned should the scheme be wildly successful or popular in any way. 

This.  The bill that was passed is largely made up of past Republican ideas from Goldwater on up through Nixon and Reagan.


The fact that the Dems were branded socialists without even a hint of a public option or Medicare for all proves that the Left is now the Middle and the Right are Fucking Insanse.

[Cain]

Last time I checked, the Democrats had a majority in both houses in Congress and the White House, and the Republicans were a bunch of discredited, conspiracy theorist losers whose opinions shouldn't matter.

Obama didn't want a public option, and he and the rest of the White House spent all of last summer sabotaging one.  If Obama had come out hard in favour of a public option, he could've gotten it passsed - public opinion was there, and its very hard to go up against a sitting President from your own party (especially when he has a rabid attack dog like Rahm Emmanuel at his side).  But he didn't, and the Progressive Democratic Caucus are basically spineless wimps anyway, so Obama steam-rollered them all into getting the result he wanted and planned for from the very beginning.

[LMNO]

Last time I checked, the Democrats had a majority in both houses in Congress and the White House, and the Republicans were a bunch of discredited, conspiracy theorist losers whose opinions shouldn't matter.

Obama didn't want a public option, and he and the rest of the White House spent all of last summer sabotaging one.  If Obama had come out hard in favour of a public option, he could've gotten it passsed - public opinion was there, and its very hard to go up against a sitting President from your own party (especially when he has a rabid attack dog like Rahm Emmanuel at his side).  But he didn't, and the Progressive Democratic Caucus are basically spineless wimps anyway, so Obama steam-rollered them all into getting the result he wanted and planned for from the very beginning.

Oh, joy.


Goddamn Smiler.