Free Will

[LMNO]

You have to understand that you're in the BIP, you have to understand why this brick and that bar are there, before you can renovate your cell... maybe?

Which was kind of the entire main thrust of the v1.0 pamphlet.

[Telarus]

Take a garden variety p-zombie.  Say you could convince him that he was a p-zombie.  How would he behave?  If he became able to act with regard to his lack of self-awareness, would he become self-aware?

He would reach a new level of self-awareness. On that level he could once again be convinced that what he calls self-awareness is not real sending him level-up again.

I'm not convinced this is true myself, but is sounds as the right answer......

I talked a friend who was mulling over these exact issues into a looping and re-looping illumination such that you describe (well, it was after I left and he took those mushrooms). Danger of introducing Discordia to a troubled Christian Mystic.

[Jasper]

Self-awareness feedback loop sounds like a hellish way to lose your mind.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Are you equating free will to the degree someone is self-aware?

If not, could you clarify how you're making this inference from your self-awareness example?

Self Awareness does seem to be necessary for 'free will' to exist in a usable fashion ... I hadn't considered that.

You have to understand HOW you react to stimuli and WHY you react in that way in order to make any changes.

OR

You have to understand that you're in the BIP, you have to understand why this brick and that bar are there, before you can renovate your cell... maybe?

Understanding how you react and why you react certainly are not necessary prerequisites for change.

You can stumble upon a new way by accident and decide to continue doing it in this more effective manner with no understanding of how or why it works.

Similarly, you can observe another person do something a new way and merely do the same thing and arrive at the same results without any understanding how or why it works.


However, I do think the case for self awareness being a precondition is fairly compelling.

Good point Sig, I'm going to mull that one over.

[Jasper]

Susan Blackmore's "Conversations about Consciousness" is where I got the notion, in case you're interested.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Are you equating free will to the degree someone is self-aware?

If not, could you clarify how you're making this inference from your self-awareness example?

Self Awareness does seem to be necessary for 'free will' to exist in a usable fashion ... I hadn't considered that.

You have to understand HOW you react to stimuli and WHY you react in that way in order to make any changes.

OR

You have to understand that you're in the BIP, you have to understand why this brick and that bar are there, before you can renovate your cell... maybe?

Understanding how you react and why you react certainly are not necessary prerequisites for change.

You can stumble upon a new way by accident and decide to continue doing it in this more effective manner with no understanding of how or why it works.

Similarly, you can observe another person do something a new way and merely do the same thing and arrive at the same results without any understanding how or why it works.


However, I do think the case for self awareness being a precondition is fairly compelling.

Good point Sig, I'm going to mull that one over.

Ah but in neither of those situations is the 'changed person' exhibiting 'free will'... in both of those examples, they are changing based on external stimuli (accidental or observed).

[Telarus]

Self-awareness feedback loop sounds like a hellish way to lose your mind.

Yeah, I saw him 2 days later and his posture was bleeding exhaustion, so I asked him what was up. He described the self-awareness looping, said it lasted for a day (far longer than the mushrooms did) and that the night before that conversation it began to flash faster and faster until he had a panic attack, in the middle of which a bright light and sense of calm flooded his mind and he could pass out. He was really worried he did something wrong (like, messed up something physical/chemical).

I told him not to worry about it. He had gone through the classic Kabalistic practice of burning out the 3rd circuit temporarily in order to cross the abyss from 5th to 6th. Kabalistic practice focuses on Law of 5s style bombardment of symbols/correspondences, with numerology and the alphabet serving as your map. I told him it would take about a week to start integrating the experience.

He was very much relieved he wasn't antisocially insane like he thought he was.

[Jasper]

Fascinating!  ...But nothing I'd ever put my brain through.  If I can't get there with understanding and meditation, I don't need to go.

[Telarus]

Just one path up the mountain, brother. [/desmond-moment]

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Ah but in neither of those situations is the 'changed person' exhibiting 'free will'... in both of those examples, they are changing based on external stimuli (accidental or observed).

That only makes sense if you have shifted the goalposts as to what free will means. Since you seem to have a different one from the dictionary, how about you share your definition?

How is accidentally doing something an external stimulus? That's ridiculous.

How exactly is deciding to simulate another person's behavior not free will?

LMNO just pointed out how you can, "behave in a pre-programmed manner, but that doesn't mean we're forced to."

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Susan Blackmore's "Conversations about Consciousness" is where I got the notion, in case you're interested.

Cool beans. Thanks.

[SuperNull]

Regardless, belief in a lack of free will has less utility than the belief that it exists, and not only in mere philosophical terms.
It may be true that you rationalize decisions after the fact. It may be true that the entire experience of control over your decisions is another manifestation of this after the fact monkey brain.
But, true or not, having a feeling of control over your decisions is strongly linked to your mental health and immune system.
Even if it is illusory, it confers a testable, biological advantage over believing it doesn't exist.

It just occurred to me this has to do with the p-zombie example Sigmatic and me were talking about.

Take a garden variety p-zombie.  Say you could convince him that he was a p-zombie.  How would he behave?  If he became able to act with regard to his lack of self-awareness, would he become self-aware?

He would reach a new level of self-awareness. On that level he could once again be convinced that what he calls self-awareness is not real sending him level-up again.
I'm not convinced this is true myself, but is sounds as the right answer......

Agree, but to me that implies two things:  That "consciousness" and by extension free will, occur in degrees, not on/off.  Secondly, it implies that we're part of the continuum between no consciousness and maximum consciousness.

It appears then when you are convinced you have no free will, you:
- Either kill yourself (directly, with depression or lack of care).
- Or compensate with a new mental construct that recognises your former lack of free will, incorporates your new-found free will and makes it harder to convince you again that you have no free will.

HAHAHA, how wonderful.
This really is a revelation to me.

[Jasper]

Explain your reasoning? 

A perceived lack of free will would probably result in the usual.  Social withdrawal, depression, and prisoner-ish tendencies.

Have you read our BIP project, by the way?

[SuperNull]

Well yes, that's what I said.
A perceived lack of free will causes you to be a tortured soul unless you can compensate with a new world-view that has free will in it again.
That new world-view can be seen as "a higher state of conciousness" or "a new and more clever way to lie to yourself". With ever you prefer.

If you tell me what BIP stand for I can look for it.

[Kai]

I thought this thread was done with.

Sometimes metaphysics gets bogged down in this crap.