The Shame Thread.

[-Kel-]

I OWN A COPY OF HAPPY 2B HARDCORE CHAPTER 4...AND I STILL ENJOY LISTENING TO IT.

I LIVE NEXT DOOR TO BADGE.  

[BADGE OF HONOR]

I OWN A COPY OF HAPPY 2B HARDCORE CHAPTER 4...AND I STILL ENJOY LISTENING TO IT.

I LIVE NEXT DOOR TO BADGE.  

One of these days you're gonna hear me listening to it. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Say what?  

And there is my shame, I am sadly undereducated in the ways of the world and ummmm don't know shit about stuff like this....

Ultra-Orthodox Jews.

So goes the rumor, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some weirdos out there who do fuck through a sheet. However, it's also suspected by some people that the "LOL Jews fuck through a sheet cos they're prudish" thing came about from people seeing the tallit katan (a poncho-type garment made from a rectangular sheet of cloth with a hole cut in for the wearer's head) hanging out to dry.

My best friend was raised Orthodox, and I had never heard this practice ascribed to Jews; in fact, I've gotten the strong impression that Orthodox Jews are very sex-positive. (This is the friend who is relieved that her parents are merely not coming to her wedding, and not disowning her for marrying a Gentile. Not fucking kidding.) In Judaism, sex is a wife's right; a husband has an obligation to provide sex at least every other day, and to watch his wife for signs that she might want sex, and offer it so that she never has to ask for it.

Some Fundamentalist Mormons do the fucking through a sheet thing though. They also do a lot of other really fucking weird shit.

[Brotep]

I have heard the rumor plenty of times, from members of various Jewish movements.

What you say is true: it is a husband's obligation by Jewish law to satisfy his wife sexually, in the way you describe.

However, Ultra-Orthodox is different from Orthodox. Among the ranks of the Ultra-Orthodox are the Hasidim, who carry quite a bit of folk religion over to the present day.

there is a tradition (likely more with Hasidim than Orthodox Jews, as the former tend to be more superstitious) that the man's state of mind when he ejaculates plays a role in determining the nature of the child that will be conceived. So if a man's thoughts are on He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, the child will grow up to be pious, whereas if he is focused on carnal enjoyment, the child will grow up to be lecherous and wicked

It is thus not difficult to imagine that having sex through a sheet with a hole in it would be a way of helping one keep the focus on God.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have heard the rumor plenty of times, from members of various Jewish movements.

What you say is true: it is a husband's obligation by Jewish law to satisfy his wife sexually, in the way you describe.

However, Ultra-Orthodox is different from Orthodox. Among the ranks of the Ultra-Orthodox are the Hasidim, who carry quite a bit of folk religion over to the present day.

there is a tradition (likely more with Hasidim than Orthodox Jews, as the former tend to be more superstitious) that the man's state of mind when he ejaculates plays a role in determining the nature of the child that will be conceived. So if a man's thoughts are on He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, the child will grow up to be pious, whereas if he is focused on carnal enjoyment, the child will grow up to be lecherous and wicked

It is thus not difficult to imagine that having sex through a sheet with a hole in it would be a way of helping one keep the focus on God.

But that would be directly un-Mitsvah and violate the Law spelled out in the Torah, no matter how you slice it. Carnal enjoyment between a man and his wife is not forbidden, it is MANDATORY. I suspect that people with a Christian background tend to assume that "pious" equates to "asexual" in Judaism, but Judaism doesn't have that particular mentality. The idea that physical pleasure is "bad" simply isn't institutionalized in Judaism. That whole "worldly pleasures" thing was invented in Christianity.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not difficult to imagine if you are thinking about it with a Christian-based worldview, make a bunch of assumptions, and don't know much about Judaism. It's incredibly difficult to imagine, otherwise, because basically you are saying that "ultra-Orthodox" Jews go directly against the Torah.

[Brotep]

But that would be directly un-Mitsvah and violate the Law spelled out in the Torah, no matter how you slice it. Carnal enjoyment between a man and his wife is not forbidden, it is MANDATORY. I suspect that people with a Christian background tend to assume that "pious" equates to "asexual" in Judaism, but Judaism doesn't have that particular mentality. The idea that physical pleasure is "bad" simply isn't institutionalized in Judaism. That whole "worldly pleasures" thing was invented in Christianity.

Possibly. It was by no means the only religion to hold that view, however.

The next time I come across someone with a Christian background who makes such a claim, I will be sure to relay your message to them.

Furthermore, Judaism is not just one thing. There are many different opinions and interpretations of the Law, and it is hardly apt to explain it as the opposite of Puritan anti-carnality.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not difficult to imagine if you are thinking about it with a Christian-based worldview, make a bunch of assumptions, and don't know much about Judaism. It's incredibly difficult to imagine, otherwise, because basically you are saying that "ultra-Orthodox" Jews go directly against the Torah.

Oh, that is so charitable, sweetheart. 

If I remember the passage you allude to correctly, it doesn't actually say anything about pleasure (although that may well be present in commentary/opinions on it). It says that a husband is required to give his wife a certain amount of sex per week, depending on the constraints of his job. If he's a traveling merchant, he's not obligated quite so frequently as someone who stays local.

Also, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the contemplation of God (or HaShem, meaning "the name") takes precedence over other concerns in certain views (such as that of a Lubavitcher* rabbi I know). It's not that you're not supposed to enjoy sex, it's just that you're supposed to keep the big G in your heart. Not having the proper kavanah (intention) is a big no-no.


*for those who might have a "Christian background", please note that Lubavitch is a branch of Hasidism**, named for the town of its origin
**for those who might have a "Christian background" and not know anything about Judaism and try to understand it with a Christian-based worldview and make a bunch of assumptions, please note that Hasidism is a Jewish movement which had its origins among the poor and uneducated and incorporates a great deal of folk religion, as well as a distrust of secular learning. In fact, the legendary founder of Hasidism, the Baal Shem Tov, was a Baal Shem (master of names), a faith healer of sorts.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thanks for schooling me on how Jews really do have sex through a hole in a sheet. 

[Brotep]

Thanks for schooling me on how Jews really do have sex through a hole in a sheet. 

If you saw my last girlfriend,  you'd understand.

[BadBeast]

AT TIMES I FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT NOT TO GIVE IN TO THE RED MIST, AND PERFORM ACTS OF GLEEFUL VIOLENCE ON SOME STUPID SHITBOY, WITH LAUGHING, JOYOUS ABANDON. 
FOR THE LAST 18 YEARS, INSTEAD OF ACTING OUT, AND THEN REGRETTING IT, I NOW INDULGE MYSELF IN HUNTING, DISMEMBERMENT AND TORTURE FANTASIES, WHERE I HUNT A MOTHERFUCKER DOWN, TIE THEM UP, THEN SLOWLY CUT BITS OFF, WHILST EXPLAINING IN DETAIL WHY I AM DOING IT, HOW THEY COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS, AND THEN THROWING WHAT'S LEFT TO MY SPECIALLY TRAINED ATTACK BEAR-CROCODILES, OR MY FLYING PIT-FERRETS.

(They're MY fantasies, if I want flying attack ferrets, then I shall have them)

IN THIS WAY, I HAVE NOT COMMITTED AN SINGLE ACT OF STUPID OR UN-NECESSARY VIOLENCE FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS. SO, YES, I STILL HAVE A SADISTIC EVIL TEMPERED AND CRUEL BLOODTHIRSTY BEAST INSIDE ME, BUT I HAVE LEARNED THAT WITH A SADISTIC EVIL TEMPERED AND CRUEL BLOODTHIRSTY BEAST AND A PROPENSITY FOR VIOLENCE, COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY, DIRE CONSEQUENCES, AND REGRETTABLE INCIDENTS.

SO NOW AI IS A GOOD BEASTY, WHAT JUST KNOW'S THAT TO BE BAD, IS BAD FOR ME, AND EVERYONE AROUND ME. AN AI DO SO WANT TO BE GOOD.   

[BadBeast]

AT TIMES I FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT NOT TO GIVE IN TO THE RED MIST, AND PERFORM ACTS OF GLEEFUL VIOLENCE ON SOME STUPID SHITBOY, WITH LAUGHING, JOYOUS ABANDON.  
FOR THE LAST 18 YEARS, INSTEAD OF ACTING OUT, AND THEN REGRETTING IT, I NOW INDULGE MYSELF IN HUNTING, DISMEMBERMENT AND TORTURE FANTASIES, WHERE I HUNT A MOTHERFUCKER DOWN, TIE THEM UP, THEN SLOWLY CUT BITS OFF, WHILST EXPLAINING IN DETAIL WHY I AM DOING IT, HOW THEY COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS, AND THEN THROWING WHAT'S LEFT TO MY SPECIALLY TRAINED ATTACK BEAR-CROCODILES, OR MY FLYING PIT-FERRETS.

(They're MY fantasies, if I want flying attack ferrets, then I shall have them)

IN THIS WAY, I HAVE NOT COMMITTED AN SINGLE ACT OF STUPID OR UN-NECESSARY VIOLENCE FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS. SO, YES, I STILL HAVE A SADISTIC EVIL TEMPERED AND CRUEL BLOODTHIRSTY BEAST INSIDE ME, BUT I HAVE LEARNED THAT WITH A SADISTIC EVIL TEMPERED AND CRUEL BLOODTHIRSTY BEAST AND A PROPENSITY FOR VIOLENCE, COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY, DIRE CONSEQUENCES, AND REGRETTABLE INCIDENTS.

SO NOW AI IS A GOOD BEASTY, WHAT JUST KNOW'S THAT TO BE BAD, IS BAD FOR ME, AND EVERYONE AROUND ME. AN AI DO SO WANT TO BE GOOD.  

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

OK Bad Beast scares me a little.   

[Adios]

I AM AN UNEMPLOYED DRUNK.

[BadBeast]

I AM UNEMPLOYABLE ABUSER OF SUBSTANCES. I AM ALSO  LAZY. I AM SELF INDULGENT, HEDONISTIC, AND HAVE NO RESPECT FOR ANY AUTHORITY FIGURE. I HAVE BEEN BAD, AND HAVE A QUITE DIVERSE CRIMINAL RECORD.
I DO NOT FEEL SHAME FOR THIS THOUGH.
I FEEL SHAME FOR NOT TAKING OPPORTUNITIES TO DO ANY BETTER, AND FOR BEING A UNPLEASANT AND VIOLENT DRUNK AT VARIOUS POINTS IN MY PAST. I COULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER FATHER, A BETTER SON, PARTNER, AND BROTHER. ALL THESE THINGS GIVE ME TWINGES OF SHAME.
BUT I AM THE BEST MAN THAT I CAN BE, FOR ALL THAT.
I HAVE LEARNED FROM MY MISTAKES, AND MAKE LESS MISTAKES NOW. BUT I FEEL SHAME THAT I DID NOT LEARN FROM THEM MUCH EARLIER, BECAUSE I COULD HAVE SAVED A LOT OF GRIEF ALL ROUND.
BUT HEY, I DON'T LOSE ANY SLEEP OVER ANY OF IT.

[Pariah]

OF THE MANY BOOKS I HAVE STARTED TO READ THESE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, I HAVEN'T FINISHED ONE SINCE NOVEMBER.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

OK Bad Beast scares me a little.   

I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul.