Author Topic: Picking Cain's Brains  (Read 76391 times)

lexi

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #285 on: March 09, 2022, 03:16:11 pm »
If successful, Putin acting out in this way and seizing Ukraine may give him.. what.. another decade of power?

How long would he have had if he never followed through on his aging threat to invade?

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #286 on: March 09, 2022, 06:21:09 pm »
Sometimes a war happens and America isn't the bad guy.

Call me crazy, but there you are.

I didn't say America was solely responsible. They didn't invade Ukraine. That's Putin's sin. I'm saying America's inaction, through either laziness or ignorance, helped build the conditions that made it a reality. They are complicit, and if they continue down this line of reasoning with Russia, we're no longer going to be alive to bitch about it. It's our responsibility to pressure our government to do better.

Giving them the out is like giving American Corporate Oligarchs an out for having lived through and been brainwashed by Capitalist Propaganda into thinking their persistent exploitation of their fellow countrymen and the environment is okay because profits are up this quarter. They chose to keep overwhelming Power. They are culpable for how they've used and abused it, regardless of whether they understand their role in the resulting dystopia.

Russia is solely responsible.  Nobody held a gun to Putin's head and told him to invade.

I'm not disagreeing with that. But there is no justification for US/NATO explicitly choosing the path of most escalation every time a decision needed to be made on the crisis. Even if the Invasion has nothing to do with Ukraine's NATO membership, for 20+ years, US/NATO have been giving Putin every bit of ammunition he could possibly want to justify an invasion. I consider that irresponsible, and justification for the label of "complicit".

I understand fully WHY they made those choices. Zelenskyy and Ukrainians in general feel that they'd rather risk it all for freedom from Russia's grip. They're clearly the ones telling the US/NATO not to back down on their NATO membership message on principle, fully acknowledging that it would lead to continued military conflict, and I commend that courage. I'm sure we'd feel the same way if we were fighting against a Fascist superpower on our doorstep. But we have to ask ourselves:

Is Ukraine's temporary, de facto lack of sovereignty (Which could be resolved if the US pushed and fed Leftist Organized Labor Movements in Russia and Ukraine.) a problem that we're willing to risk Humanity's existence on to solve with a Proxy War?

I know if WE were fighting a Fascist nuclear superpower on our doorstep, I wouldn't want the rest of the world to continuously escalate on every bluff that superpower made. I would just want them to keep some pressure on and provide resources to extend the Defense.


The fact that Russia is currently targeting civilian structures, which they would need to expend resources to rebuild if they were intending to absorb them into an Empire, demonstrates to me that they really do consider the NATO membership aspect to be an existential threat (Their words.). They're decimating Ukraine to ensure it's no longer a threat. They will continue until Ukraine is a pile of ashes. We need to decide soon if we want to entertain other options besides further escalation, and letting them burn all of Ukraine to the ground.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #287 on: March 09, 2022, 11:55:19 pm »
Sometimes a war happens and America isn't the bad guy.

Call me crazy, but there you are.

I didn't say America was solely responsible. They didn't invade Ukraine. That's Putin's sin. I'm saying America's inaction, through either laziness or ignorance, helped build the conditions that made it a reality. They are complicit, and if they continue down this line of reasoning with Russia, we're no longer going to be alive to bitch about it. It's our responsibility to pressure our government to do better.

Giving them the out is like giving American Corporate Oligarchs an out for having lived through and been brainwashed by Capitalist Propaganda into thinking their persistent exploitation of their fellow countrymen and the environment is okay because profits are up this quarter. They chose to keep overwhelming Power. They are culpable for how they've used and abused it, regardless of whether they understand their role in the resulting dystopia.

Russia is solely responsible.  Nobody held a gun to Putin's head and told him to invade.

I'm not disagreeing with that. But there is no justification for US/NATO explicitly choosing the path of most escalation every time a decision needed to be made on the crisis. Even if the Invasion has nothing to do with Ukraine's NATO membership, for 20+ years, US/NATO have been giving Putin every bit of ammunition he could possibly want to justify an invasion. I consider that irresponsible, and justification for the label of "complicit".


Well, obviously.  Nothing ever happens if the USA isn't there to make it happen.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #288 on: March 10, 2022, 07:43:21 pm »
Sometimes a war happens and America isn't the bad guy.

Call me crazy, but there you are.

I didn't say America was solely responsible. They didn't invade Ukraine. That's Putin's sin. I'm saying America's inaction, through either laziness or ignorance, helped build the conditions that made it a reality. They are complicit, and if they continue down this line of reasoning with Russia, we're no longer going to be alive to bitch about it. It's our responsibility to pressure our government to do better.

Giving them the out is like giving American Corporate Oligarchs an out for having lived through and been brainwashed by Capitalist Propaganda into thinking their persistent exploitation of their fellow countrymen and the environment is okay because profits are up this quarter. They chose to keep overwhelming Power. They are culpable for how they've used and abused it, regardless of whether they understand their role in the resulting dystopia.

Russia is solely responsible.  Nobody held a gun to Putin's head and told him to invade.

I'm not disagreeing with that. But there is no justification for US/NATO explicitly choosing the path of most escalation every time a decision needed to be made on the crisis. Even if the Invasion has nothing to do with Ukraine's NATO membership, for 20+ years, US/NATO have been giving Putin every bit of ammunition he could possibly want to justify an invasion. I consider that irresponsible, and justification for the label of "complicit".


Well, obviously.  Nothing bad ever usually happens if the USA isn't there to make it happen ignore the warnings of foreign policy specialists, humanitarians, and academics for years, and openly support and directly fund predatory, Imperialist murder campaigns that push every country South of the Equator, Left of George Bush, and previously/currently opposed to American Hegemony further into existential crises that prop up Populist/Fascist Dictators, or provide false hope to geo-strategically fucked countries sitting next to them.

Fixed.

This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #289 on: March 11, 2022, 01:02:49 am »
But there is no justification for US/NATO explicitly choosing the path of most escalation every time a decision needed to be made on the crisis.
That's obviously not happening.  The current refusal to implement a no-fly zone, and the US not facilitating the donation of Polish MIGs is not "the path of most escalation".

Quote
Even if the Invasion has nothing to do with Ukraine's NATO membership, for 20+ years, US/NATO have been giving Putin every bit of ammunition he could possibly want to justify an invasion.
No, they haven't given Putin "every bit of ammunition he could possibly want."  Offering immediate NATO membership, or stationing NATO troops in Ukraine would be much better than Putin's stated justification of "de-nazifying Ukraine".   Which is, frankly, pretty lame.

Quote
I consider that irresponsible, and justification for the label of "complicit".
No matter what the action movies tell you, the US is not responsible for maintaining the peace of the world.

Quote
(Which could be resolved if the US pushed and fed Leftist Organized Labor Movements in Russia and Ukraine.)
I've noticed that the people who accept the narrative that NATO is responsible for the invasion also tend to have an idealistic view of socialism or communism.  It's probably an artifact of where they go to get their news.

Quote
I know if WE were fighting a Fascist nuclear superpower on our doorstep, I wouldn't want the rest of the world to continuously escalate on every bluff that superpower made.
It's a good thing the rest of the world isn't continuously escalating, then.  (Financial sanctions aren't an escalation, they're retribution).

Quote
I would just want them to keep some pressure on and provide resources to extend the Defense.
That's what's happening.

Quote
The fact that Russia is currently targeting civilian structures, which they would need to expend resources to rebuild if they were intending to absorb them into an Empire, demonstrates to me that they really do consider the NATO membership aspect to be an existential threat (Their words.). They're decimating Ukraine to ensure it's no longer a threat.
Russia's slow progress in the invasion suggests that they badly underestimated Ukraine.  They thought this would be over in a few days.  That's not the kind of judgement you make of someone you consider a "threat".  Destroying Ukraine wasn't part of the original plan; rather, it's Putin's alternative to losing.  His first choice was a subdued, mostly intact client state, with his goons in control of the government.  His second choice is doing whatever it takes to hold onto power, up to and including scorched earth.  Because if he loses this war, he'll lose his presidency, if not his life.

Quote
We need to decide soon if we want to entertain other options besides further escalation, and letting them burn all of Ukraine to the ground.
"We" are already executing other options.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #290 on: March 12, 2022, 01:03:58 am »
I'm really not here to argue with people who make excuses for Putin.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #291 on: March 15, 2022, 10:04:28 pm »
I'm really not here to argue with people who make excuses for Putin.

Whatever. I'm done trying to explain the difference between:

- Making the case for less Imperialistic motivation behind foreign policy, in favor of humanitarian/diplomatic bridge building
and
- Justifying crimes against humanity by the dictators that Imperialism feeds



Apparently that level of nuance is just impossible to comprehend after the War Machine shuffles its queue cards a few times. Another Power that the US/NATO have been xenophobically ostracizing for a century, no matter what they did, finally did something openly and globally unacceptable and consequential. So that must mean the US/NATO were right all along, and that we all need to stand behind every decision they make in response. Anything suggesting that there were/are other options at any time are clearly just Pro-Putin propaganda.

Now don't get me wrong, there's plenty of Pro-Putin bullshit floating around out there, too. I even see some Lefties who rose to fame under Trumpism just openly pushing stuff that's either inconsequentially anti-US (The arguments they were making were weak or minor in comparison to other more important arguments. This clearly demonstrates intentional pandering.), or pretty bluntly pro-Putin in the form of "Putin did nothing wrong, the US/NATO didn't give anyone a choice," which is taking my argument to a stupid extreme.

I just think it's utterly bullshit that "We had other options, we have other options, we are ignoring all options that relate to realistic diplomacy - and at the cost of increased tension and lower and middle-class suffering" gets lumped in with all of that. It's an insult to healthy dissent.


But there is no justification for US/NATO explicitly choosing the path of most escalation every time a decision needed to be made on the crisis.
That's obviously not happening.  The current refusal to implement a no-fly zone, and the US not facilitating the donation of Polish MIGs is not "the path of most escalation".

Quote
Even if the Invasion has nothing to do with Ukraine's NATO membership, for 20+ years, US/NATO have been giving Putin every bit of ammunition he could possibly want to justify an invasion.
No, they haven't given Putin "every bit of ammunition he could possibly want."  Offering immediate NATO membership, or stationing NATO troops in Ukraine would be much better than Putin's stated justification of "de-nazifying Ukraine".   Which is, frankly, pretty lame.

Quote
I consider that irresponsible, and justification for the label of "complicit".
No matter what the action movies tell you, the US is not responsible for maintaining the peace of the world.

Quote
(Which could be resolved if the US pushed and fed Leftist Organized Labor Movements in Russia and Ukraine.)
I've noticed that the people who accept the narrative that NATO is responsible for the invasion also tend to have an idealistic view of socialism or communism.  It's probably an artifact of where they go to get their news.

Quote
I know if WE were fighting a Fascist nuclear superpower on our doorstep, I wouldn't want the rest of the world to continuously escalate on every bluff that superpower made.
It's a good thing the rest of the world isn't continuously escalating, then.  (Financial sanctions aren't an escalation, they're retribution).

Quote
I would just want them to keep some pressure on and provide resources to extend the Defense.
That's what's happening.

Quote
The fact that Russia is currently targeting civilian structures, which they would need to expend resources to rebuild if they were intending to absorb them into an Empire, demonstrates to me that they really do consider the NATO membership aspect to be an existential threat (Their words.). They're decimating Ukraine to ensure it's no longer a threat.
Russia's slow progress in the invasion suggests that they badly underestimated Ukraine.  They thought this would be over in a few days.  That's not the kind of judgement you make of someone you consider a "threat".  Destroying Ukraine wasn't part of the original plan; rather, it's Putin's alternative to losing.  His first choice was a subdued, mostly intact client state, with his goons in control of the government.  His second choice is doing whatever it takes to hold onto power, up to and including scorched earth.  Because if he loses this war, he'll lose his presidency, if not his life.

Quote
We need to decide soon if we want to entertain other options besides further escalation, and letting them burn all of Ukraine to the ground.
"We" are already executing other options.


This is mostly just Straw Men, or completely missing the point/making bad assumptions about my position. I might respond to it piecemeal, later.

One thing I did find disturbing, although not surprising due to the fairly unified War Propaganda flowing around, is that you identified Sanctions as "retribution." If I didn't know any better, I'd consider the statement xenophobic, but these are somewhat unique times and I'll let it slide.

Unless specific assets/markets can be used to target those in Power (And they are just starting to do so successfully now, over the last few days.), Sanctions only really directly impact the general population, and are intended to slow/halt the conflict by putting general economic pressure on the country and, subsequently, its leadership. All of these companies/Blue-Checks suddenly demanding we don't do business with Russian civilian companies and organizations, etc. is honestly fucking disgusting. The Russian civilians, victims of a pretty brutal dictatorship, are now also being forced out of the global economy for Putin's actions and pushed into socioeconomic decline that will likely take decades to recover from. That's of course assuming that the sanctions are removed after the conflict. Last I checked, NATO/US don't have a really good rollback record on Sanctions, although I'll take evidence of the contrary.

Neither the Russian People, nor the global population deserve the socioeconomic pressure from massive sanctions on a highly globalized economic Power. Was it the safest way to end the conflict? I'm sure History will say so. But regardless of where you stand on that debate, sanctions like the ones implemented guarantee that millions of innocent people will suffer, and that's nothing to be proud of - Nothing worth considering to be "retribution," as if most of those affected "had it coming," or even played a role in the conflict.


When you're in the upper echelons of Global Power Structures, the lower-level consequences of your actions are generally reduced to impersonal numbers in the form of "acceptable collateral risk" to aid their compartmentalization and coping mechanisms. News Media that's closest to those Power Structures design their narratives to further depersonalize the results to make them more palatable for the rest of us. This filtering, when we don't combine it with some healthy re-evaluation and historical context, leads to recklessly positive views of our State Leadership's actions. As a result, our State Leadership rarely concedes anything in diplomacy. They ignore humanitarian requests by the World that it finds inconvenient, and brutally dominates countries who openly dissent, or supports their domination if they happen to be enemies of our allies in conflict. If our general view of US Foreign Policy wasn't always unanimous support, our leadership would have a higher chance of doing something morally acceptable to other countries. I would imagine that if that kind of pattern was more consistent, we would have less countries throughout the world in conflict, and in need of exclusive military alliances.
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #292 on: March 15, 2022, 10:58:17 pm »
This is mostly just Straw Men, or completely missing the point/making bad assumptions about my position. I might respond to it piecemeal, later.

No need.  Your worldview is too simplistic for me to engage with, and enough noise has been added to Cain's thread already.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #293 on: March 16, 2022, 03:02:48 am »
This is mostly just Straw Men, or completely missing the point/making bad assumptions about my position. I might respond to it piecemeal, later.

No need.  Your worldview is too simplistic for me to engage with, and enough noise has been added to Cain's thread already.

 :lol: Oh yeah, I can tell you have me figured out :roll:

This board is literally for extensive discussion and idea interrogation, not just getting talked at by the admins in lengthy sermons and rants (I enjoy that too.). That being said, the admins have always been free to move my drivel to Randomness or the Peanut Gallery when appropriate. I come back every other year or so to stir the pot and get people thinking about how they present their ideas, and usually they end up flipping me on one or two points, and everyone ends up learning something. However, it doesn't work if you're already committed to the mainstream, media-backed position AND have a non-malleable view of all opposition. That's the coward's way out. I can't think of anything more pathetic than someone who's right, but doesn't have the decency to direct it at the opposition and generate the friction that energizes and strengthens 'right' signal. Even more-so in a world uniformly dominated by bad signal.



@Cain - The most recent requests so far for your convenience:

*Tips Fedora* - "Ma-lady"

So a week in and I am still not sure what to make from it. I dont like getting my information off whats being shared on social platforms and if you were to go off of reddit news articles the Ukranians have decimated the Russians.

Does it hold up, has Russia taken enough of a black eye to consider withdrawing, or is the damage they have taken inconsequential for their goal of capturing Ukraine and all this is doing is delaying the inevitable?
How can Putin still have support from this back home surely at home in Russia there would be:
Those who oppose the war
Those who dont really care but intend to use it as a cudgel to remove Putin and take power for themselves?

Or is his own support base so unwavering that he still able to weather this?



If successful, Putin acting out in this way and seizing Ukraine may give him.. what.. another decade of power?

How long would he have had if he never followed through on his aging threat to invade?
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #294 on: March 16, 2022, 03:12:17 am »
This is mostly just Straw Men, or completely missing the point/making bad assumptions about my position. I might respond to it piecemeal, later.

No need.  Your worldview is too simplistic for me to engage with, and enough noise has been added to Cain's thread already.

 :lol: Oh yeah, I can tell you have me figured out :roll:

This board is literally for extensive discussion and idea interrogation, not just getting talked at by the admins in lengthy sermons and rants (I enjoy that too.). That being said, the admins have always been free to move my drivel to Randomness or the Peanut Gallery when appropriate. I come back every other year or so to stir the pot and get people thinking about how they present their ideas, and usually they end up flipping me on one or two points, and everyone ends up learning something. However, it doesn't work if you're already committed to the mainstream, media-backed position AND have a non-malleable view of all opposition. That's the coward's way out. I can't think of anything more pathetic than someone who's right, but doesn't have the decency to direct it at the opposition and generate the friction that energizes and strengthens 'right' signal. Even more-so in a world uniformly dominated by bad signal.



Sadly in agreement - This is undoubtedly another B-Roll Season.



TRENT, I DIDN'T GIVE YOU A 10-CENT RAISE SO YOU COULD LET MY LATTE GET COLD. Stir it for 5, let it settle for 20, AND THEN HEAT IT BACK UP AGAIN. AND FOR FUCK'S SAKE, I WANT IT BACK IN MY HANDS IN 10 MINUTES...


GET FUCKED! THE 10-CENT RAISE WAS ALSO NOT FOR YOU TO DO MATH!

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #295 on: March 16, 2022, 01:47:10 pm »
Sadly in agreement - This is undoubtedly another B-Roll Season.



TRENT, I DIDN'T GIVE YOU A 10-CENT RAISE SO YOU COULD LET MY LATTE GET COLD. Stir it for 5, let it settle for 20, AND THEN HEAT IT BACK UP AGAIN. AND FOR FUCK'S SAKE, I WANT IT BACK IN MY HANDS IN 10 MINUTES...


GET FUCKED! THE 10-CENT RAISE WAS ALSO NOT FOR YOU TO DO MATH!
hey, I only took this job because you said i could have my name in the movie credits

and my name's not trent
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #296 on: March 16, 2022, 05:03:04 pm »
This board is literally for extensive discussion and idea interrogation, not just getting talked at by the admins in lengthy sermons and rants (I enjoy that too.). That being said, the admins have always been free to move my drivel to Randomness or the Peanut Gallery when appropriate.

There is precisely zero chance that any of this conversation is getting moved anywhere.

It is all very on topic, even if I think you're wrong.
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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #297 on: March 16, 2022, 06:19:05 pm »
Sadly in agreement - This is undoubtedly another B-Roll Season.



TRENT, I DIDN'T GIVE YOU A 10-CENT RAISE SO YOU COULD LET MY LATTE GET COLD. Stir it for 5, let it settle for 20, AND THEN HEAT IT BACK UP AGAIN. AND FOR FUCK'S SAKE, I WANT IT BACK IN MY HANDS IN 10 MINUTES...


GET FUCKED! THE 10-CENT RAISE WAS ALSO NOT FOR YOU TO DO MATH!
hey, I only took this job because you said i could have my name in the movie credits

and my name's not trent


TRENT!...

*Eyes dart left - Sudden and hurried shuffling as Trent runs off to find something to do*

...is my soon-to-be-street-ridden assistant.


The only "credit" you're going to get at this rate is in the form of a tribunal conviction for this Holocaust of a Romantic Buildup scene! Pucker up, buttercup!  :argh!:   


TRENT! WHERE THE FUCK IS THE DOLLY OPERATOR?! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO PICK HIM UP FROM HOT TOPIC 2 HOURS AGO!

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #298 on: March 16, 2022, 06:24:33 pm »
This board is literally for extensive discussion and idea interrogation, not just getting talked at by the admins in lengthy sermons and rants (I enjoy that too.). That being said, the admins have always been free to move my drivel to Randomness or the Peanut Gallery when appropriate.

There is precisely zero chance that any of this conversation is getting moved anywhere.

It is all very on topic, even if I think you're wrong.

Foiled again, but so close.

One day...  One day I'll make it to the Peanut Gallery. Then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE...


MUAHAHAHAHAA
This Certified Pope™ reserves the Right to, on occasion, "be a complete dumbass", and otherwise ponder "idiotic" and/or "useless" ideas and other such "tomfoolery." [Aforementioned] are only responsible for the results of these actions and tendencies when they have had their addictive substance of choice for that day.

Being a Product of their Environment's Collective Order and Disorder, [Aforementioned] also reserves the Right to have their ideas, technologies, and otherwise all Intellectual Property stolen, re-purposed, and re-attributed at Will ONLY by other Certified Popes. Corporations, LLC's, and otherwise Capitalist-based organizations are NOT capable of being Certified Popes.

Battering Rams not included.

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #299 on: March 17, 2022, 12:04:18 am »
This board is literally for extensive discussion and idea interrogation, not just getting talked at by the admins in lengthy sermons and rants (I enjoy that too.). That being said, the admins have always been free to move my drivel to Randomness or the Peanut Gallery when appropriate.

There is precisely zero chance that any of this conversation is getting moved anywhere.

It is all very on topic, even if I think you're wrong.

Foiled again, but so close.

One day...  One day I'll make it to the Peanut Gallery. Then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE...


MUAHAHAHAHAA

One day.

But TODAY, *I* have turned "being reasonable and fair-minded" into a DICK MOVE.
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