Creation vs Destruction: FIGHT!

[President Television]

The destruction of Tojo's Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere".
The destruction of the Berlin Wall.
The destruction of my underpance.  Trust me on this one.

Wouldn't this all fall under Creative Destruction, though?

[Doktor Howl]

Creative Destruction

Gonna pretend I didn't hear that shit.

[President Television]

Creative Destruction

Gonna pretend I didn't hear that shit.

I take it you're not a fan of the second chart.

[Doktor Howl]

Creative Destruction

Gonna pretend I didn't hear that shit.

I take it you're not a fan of the second chart.

I fucking hate bullshit oxymoronic terms.  The actual conversation:

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

Now, I really fail to see why this is so fucking hard to grasp, and why what I said is being hammered into some bizarre fucking hippie-ass concept that I had not referred - or responded - to.  I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

[President Television]

I fucking hate bullshit oxymoronic terms.  The actual conversation:

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

Now, I really fail to see why this is so fucking hard to grasp, and why what I said is being hammered into some bizarre fucking hippie-ass concept that I had not referred - or responded - to.  I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Ok, then. Now that I think about it, none of the things you mentioned would really be creative at all, and they'd still be good things. Destructive good things. I think I get it now.

[Triple Zero]

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

word, lay it on me! 

The destruction of Tojo's Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere".
The destruction of the Berlin Wall.
The destruction of my underpance.  Trust me on this one.

Hm in that sense, the sense where some things are better destructed than created, I agree I couldn't pick one over the other. In general I get more opportunity for creation, though.

Though looking at the fall of the Wall, I feel the creation of the united Germany much stronger than the destruction of the (physical and political) barrier. I mean, seriously, of course it's two sides of the same coin, but it's hard for me to really see it as a destructive event.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

word, lay it on me! 

The destruction of Tojo's Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere".
The destruction of the Berlin Wall.
The destruction of my underpance.  Trust me on this one.

Hm in that sense, the sense where some things are better destructed than created, I agree I couldn't pick one over the other. In general I get more opportunity for creation, though.

Though looking at the fall of the Wall, I feel the creation of the united Germany much stronger than the destruction of the (physical and political) barrier. I mean, seriously, of course it's two sides of the same coin, but it's hard for me to really see it as a destructive event.

I agree, the fall Berlin Wall seems like a small amount of destruction within a wider creative process.

[Doktor Howl]

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

word, lay it on me! 

The destruction of Tojo's Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere".
The destruction of the Berlin Wall.
The destruction of my underpance.  Trust me on this one.

Hm in that sense, the sense where some things are better destructed than created, I agree I couldn't pick one over the other. In general I get more opportunity for creation, though.

Though looking at the fall of the Wall, I feel the creation of the united Germany much stronger than the destruction of the (physical and political) barrier. I mean, seriously, of course it's two sides of the same coin, but it's hard for me to really see it as a destructive event.

I agree, the fall Berlin Wall seems like a small amount of destruction within a wider creative process.

Was the wall physically destroyed or not?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Why is creation preferable over destruction?

Who says it is?  I mean, besides two old hippies.

I can give plenty of examples where destruction is better than creation.

word, lay it on me! 

The destruction of Tojo's Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere".
The destruction of the Berlin Wall.
The destruction of my underpance.  Trust me on this one.

Hm in that sense, the sense where some things are better destructed than created, I agree I couldn't pick one over the other. In general I get more opportunity for creation, though.

Though looking at the fall of the Wall, I feel the creation of the united Germany much stronger than the destruction of the (physical and political) barrier. I mean, seriously, of course it's two sides of the same coin, but it's hard for me to really see it as a destructive event.

I agree, the fall Berlin Wall seems like a small amount of destruction within a wider creative process.

Was the wall physically destroyed or not?

Well a chunk of it was...

Was the destruction of a chunk of wall the CAUSE of the re-unification of Germany and the easing of tensions between Regan and Gorby?
OR
Was the destruction of a chunk of wall an EFFECT related to a much larger chunk of creating a pax between the US and the USSR, as well as East Gernany and West?
OR
Was the destruction of a chunk of wall something that happened in a vacuum which had no relation to anything larger?

If its either of the First two, then it could be argued as part of something 'creative'. If its the last one, then it would be destructive and unimportant to anything.

[Doktor Howl]

Fine.  Fuck it.  Words don't mean anything.

Carry on.

[Triple Zero]

Ok I asked my gf for her opinion, since she's German and has a better view of things.

She says no, it is destruction. Something was removed that did not belong there. The creative process of unification only started after the barrier was removed.

This makes sense to me, so I'm going to go with that.

And Rat, you're going nowhere. The way you're arguing means everything can be anything depending on how you look at it. While a nice exercise for loosening the brain a littlebit, you gotta drop it if you ever want to get to something useful.

Also your questions are loaded. Destruction of the wall was the cause of the re-unification of Germany. So, destructive event caused a creative effect. That does not mean they are the same. Ease of tension between Regan and Gorbachov again happened before this, but you ask as the same question, hence loaded.

This annoys me a great deal. Also your last line is full of shit. If a destructive thing causes something new to be able to be created, it does not suddenly become a creative thing. Unless you want to say that cause and effect are in essence always the same thing, then I say, smells like chaos madjikq.

[Cramulus]

destroying stuff kicks ass, especially bad stuff.

those are certainly examples of places where a wrecking ball made for a better world. ...Except the underpance example -- it might have been better to leave Roger's genitals in the cotton hoosecow.

I think one of the things we've learned today is that it's hard to identify whether an individual action was part of a creative or destructive trip. It's not like these categories have strict definitions, so we're going to end up banging our heads against the wall if we get stuck trying to classify an action as one or the other. Especially if we use LMNO's chart, which seems to mince these categories into even smaller and fuzzier subcategories.


What's the difference between a creative trip and a destructive trip? Here's my attempt at defining the two:

If you're on a creative trip, you may build stuff or invent stuff or stimulate people to action, but you may have to break some eggs along the way. In many cases, you can't build something without knocking down whatever was there before. You will have to use both order and disorder. But ultimately, you will add something of value to the world.

If you're on a destructive trip, you may also use order or disorder, you will also build and destroy things, but the end goal is different. When I think of a destructive trip, I think of being in a bad mood and setting out to fuck something up. I think of things like greed and betrayal - putting a higher value on yourself than the people or things you're hurting. Ultimately, your actions will remove value from the world.


does that work?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ok I asked my gf for her opinion, since she's German and has a better view of things.

She says no, it is destruction. Something was removed that did not belong there. The creative process of unification only started after the barrier was removed.

This makes sense to me, so I'm going to go with that.

And Rat, you're going nowhere. The way you're arguing means everything can be anything depending on how you look at it. While a nice exercise for loosening the brain a littlebit, you gotta drop it if you ever want to get to something useful.

Also your questions are loaded. Destruction of the wall was the cause of the re-unification of Germany. So, destructive event caused a creative effect. That does not mean they are the same. Ease of tension between Regan and Gorbachov again happened before this, but you ask as the same question, hence loaded.

This annoys me a great deal. Also your last line is full of shit. If a destructive thing causes something new to be able to be created, it does not suddenly become a creative thing. Unless you want to say that cause and effect are in essence always the same thing, then I say, smells like chaos madjikq.

Earlier in this thread, we talked about how a nail is destroying something as it creates something. I think the Berlin Wall was similar, it was a destructive act, but part of a larger positive/creative process. Which, I thought, was why Capt Slack called it Creative Destruction.

The entire situation seems very complex to me and full of interrelated causes/effects. I don't think it proves that 'Destruction is Good'... but it does show that we can order data to support that 'Destruction is Good'... and we can reorder that same information to prove that "Creation is Good'.

We could argue that the destruction of the wall was better than the creation of the wall... but that seems very myopic. After all, the 'destruction' of a Unified Germany was worse than the 'Creation' of a re-unified Germany. (Same event different ordering)

[Doktor Howl]

destroying stuff kicks ass, especially bad stuff.

those are certainly examples of places where a wrecking ball made for a better world. ...Except the underpance example -- it might have been better to leave Roger's genitals in the cotton hoosecow.

I think one of the things we've learned today is that it's hard to identify whether an individual action was part of a creative or destructive trip. It's not like these categories have strict definitions, so we're going to end up banging our heads against the wall if we get stuck trying to classify an action as one or the other. Especially if we use LMNO's chart, which seems to mince these categories into even smaller and fuzzier subcategories.


What's the difference between a creative trip and a destructive trip? Here's my attempt at defining the two:

If you're on a creative trip, you may build stuff or invent stuff or stimulate people to action, but you may have to break some eggs along the way. In many cases, you can't build something without knocking down whatever was there before. You will have to use both order and disorder. But ultimately, you will add something of value to the world.

If you're on a destructive trip, you may also use order or disorder, you will also build and destroy things, but the end goal is different. When I think of a destructive trip, I think of being in a bad mood and setting out to fuck something up. I think of things like greed and betrayal - putting a higher value on yourself than the people or things you're hurting. Ultimately, your actions will remove value from the world.


does that work?

I think a better term might be "desirable" and "undesirable" ahead of "creation" or "destruction".  This allows for both situations, and doesn't require the mutilation of the English language which, in my opinion, has suffered enough.

[Cramulus]

reframing:


if we accept that a creative trip involves destroying stuff now and then,

    are there disadvantages to being on an all-creative trip?