UNLIMITED Arizona Hilarity thread

[The Johnny]

Okay, just playing Devil's Advocate a bit here...

The AZ law is terrible. But the fact that it was passed is, I think, less a testament to backwoods racism in AZ than it is to the growing frustration with the Federal Government's refusal to enforce existing law in any meaningful way. Personally, I'm not a racist, but I do think the US needs to actually control its borders. It's easier to sneak into the US and set up shop than any other developed nation in the world. The Federal Government has done practically nothing for 30 years about illegal immigration. A few round-ups, a few border patrol agents here and there, a fence (lol).

I support expanded, legal immigration. Obviously there are millions of people who would rather be here than their own countries, and I'm fine with that. But we should be doing it openly, respectfully, and above-board. Having such a restricted legal immigration channel and then doing nearly nothing to combat illegal immigration compounds all kinds of problems. And there are problems caused by illegal immigration. People come here and multiply but can't join society because of their "illegal" status. So generations of people grow up here but never identify themselves as Americans, which leads to self-segregation, economic stress, cultural clashes, crime, a sub-class of bottom-rung workers with practically no chance for advancement, etc.

The right-wing activists would have a little less to complain about and a lot less to say that other people are willing to hear, if the Federal Government would enact sensible immigration policy and then enforce it. The AZ law wouldn't have been passed if DC had been doing its job in the first place.

I agree with everything except the bolded parts.

Besides, the subsequent economic crash in Arizona would be definitely horrorlulz.

[The Johnny]

The US is not Mexico. If Mexico has failed these people so badly that they must pack up and move to another country, then that should be reflected in their actions. If they want to live here, then they should identify themselves as Americans first and Mexicans second, which they don't (partly because they don't want to and partly because some elements of our society won't let them). America is a nation of immigrants. One of our biggest strengths is our ability to accept anyone. But we can't be expected to accept people who don't really want to be here, but are forced by political or economic reasons to be here, and who send everything they earn out of the country and expect to eventually move back out of the country themselves. That isn't immigration.

Im not sure you have much to back up these claims.

Also, your idea of living somewhere out of mutual benefit not being enough to be there, but also needing to assimilate some metaphysical notion of "being American" sounds a bit strange.

[Jenne]

I'm not taking the Minuteman position here. I'm just saying we have immigration laws, and we should enforce them. If the laws aren't working, then we need to revise them, and enforce the new ones. We shouldn't just leave the system broke and ignore the consequences.

And by saying illegal immigration causes crime, I'm not saying that everyone coming across the border is a criminal, but that the defacto segregation between citizens and non-citizens results in higher social abrasion. It's true that most of them just want to work and earn an income they can't in Mexico. But that's also a problem. If they don't come here to join America, only to work, then they are not interested in being Americans. They have no intention of integrating, and even if they did, our broken immigration rules wouldn't let them integrate.

The US is not Mexico. If Mexico has failed these people so badly that they must pack up and move to another country, then that should be reflected in their actions. If they want to live here, then they should identify themselves as Americans first and Mexicans second, which they don't (partly because they don't want to and partly because some elements of our society won't let them). America is a nation of immigrants. One of our biggest strengths is our ability to accept anyone. But we can't be expected to accept people who don't really want to be here, but are forced by political or economic reasons to be here, and who send everything they earn out of the country and expect to eventually move back out of the country themselves. That isn't immigration.

1.  You took an apologist stance, pure and simple.  "The Arizonans have no CHOICE but to bring in the stinky because the Feds won't change the diapers!"  It's bullshit.

2.  The call for immigration law reform is a constant in the US universe.  You know about the pendulum swing, right?  That during boon times everyone's pretty lackadaisical. "Yeah, sure, come pick my strawberries for 5 cents on the dollar!  I want 'em as cheap as I can get 'em!"  But when the hard times hit, "Operation Wetback" begins again (that's an actual operation, by the way, to send the Mexicans back across the border during the Eisenhauer administration).

3.  That idea that Mexicans aren't HERE, too STAY, is debunked entirely by the fact that whites are now the ethnic minority in CA.  Get with the times, man.

[Adios]

I'm not taking the Minuteman position here. I'm just saying we have immigration laws, and we should enforce them. If the laws aren't working, then we need to revise them, and enforce the new ones. We shouldn't just leave the system broke and ignore the consequences.

And by saying illegal immigration causes crime, I'm not saying that everyone coming across the border is a criminal, but that the defacto segregation between citizens and non-citizens results in higher social abrasion. It's true that most of them just want to work and earn an income they can't in Mexico. But that's also a problem. If they don't come here to join America, only to work, then they are not interested in being Americans. They have no intention of integrating, and even if they did, our broken immigration rules wouldn't let them integrate.

The US is not Mexico. If Mexico has failed these people so badly that they must pack up and move to another country, then that should be reflected in their actions. If they want to live here, then they should identify themselves as Americans first and Mexicans second, which they don't (partly because they don't want to and partly because some elements of our society won't let them). America is a nation of immigrants. One of our biggest strengths is our ability to accept anyone. But we can't be expected to accept people who don't really want to be here, but are forced by political or economic reasons to be here, and who send everything they earn out of the country and expect to eventually move back out of the country themselves. That isn't immigration.

1.  You took an apologist stance, pure and simple.  "The Arizonans have no CHOICE but to bring in the stinky because the Feds won't change the diapers!"  It's bullshit.

2.  The call for immigration law reform is a constant in the US universe.  You know about the pendulum swing, right?  That during boon times everyone's pretty lackadaisical. "Yeah, sure, come pick my strawberries for 5 cents on the dollar!  I want 'em as cheap as I can get 'em!"  But when the hard times hit, "Operation Wetback" begins again (that's an actual operation, by the way, to send the Mexicans back across the border during the Eisenhauer administration).

3.  That idea that Mexicans aren't HERE, too STAY, is debunked entirely by the fact that whites are now the ethnic minority in CA.  Get with the times, man.

JENNE! CIRCLE THEM THAR WAGONS! THAR;S MEXIECUNS OUT THAR!!! SHOOT ANYTHING THAT IS A MOVIN'!

[Jenne]

How's this for "an unusual stance no one else wants to say"?

ARIZONA HAS NO ONE TO BLAME BUT ITSELF FOR HOW THINGS HAVE DEVOLVED THERE.  They have fucked up their economy six ways to Sunday--not on the backs of their illegals, but in the mismanagement of their budget.  They failed to see a housing boom and consequential business boom as ever having an ending, an abrupt bubble burst, say heralded for the 9 months leading UP to it by every fucking economist worth their salt.  We heard about the 2012 of the housing market waaaaaay before it fucking happened.  But some states got greedy and milked that fucker.

...and then there were spending cuts that could've been made and weren't.

Here's one little factoid: 

The state's prisons now house 10,800 more prisoners at a cost of $405.4 million.

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1885

Eat that, Sheriff Joe.  You're part of the problem, not the solution.

And here's something that states like AZ (and CA) are failing to realize--sure you need to cut back and reduce your spending in your state budgets.  But making it so that education and health care take the bigger falls means you will have to increase your prison budgets accordingly.  Shoring up your resources is what saves you in the short and long run.

But states apparently only need to deport the Brownies to save themselves and make themselves feel better, I guess.  You know how the FEELING of security is worth so much more than actual, hard-earned security.

[Adios]

How's this for "an unusual stance no one else wants to say"?

ARIZONA HAS NO ONE TO BLAME BUT ITSELF FOR HOW THINGS HAVE DEVOLVED THERE.  They have fucked up their economy six ways to Sunday--not on the backs of their illegals, but in the mismanagement of their budget.  They failed to see a housing boom and consequential business boom as ever having an ending, an abrupt bubble burst, say heralded for the 9 months leading UP to it by every fucking economist worth their salt.  We heard about the 2012 of the housing market waaaaaay before it fucking happened.  But some states got greedy and milked that fucker.

...and then there were spending cuts that could've been made and weren't.

Here's one little factoid: 

The state's prisons now house 10,800 more prisoners at a cost of $405.4 million.

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1885

Eat that, Sheriff Joe.  You're part of the problem, not the solution.

And here's something that states like AZ (and CA) are failing to realize--sure you need to cut back and reduce your spending in your state budgets.  But making it so that education and health care take the bigger falls means you will have to increase your prison budgets accordingly.  Shoring up your resources is what saves you in the short and long run.

But states apparently only need to deport the Brownies to save themselves and make themselves feel better, I guess.  You know how the FEELING of security is worth so much more than actual, hard-earned security.

[Jenne]

The thing is, this deportation thing, it's been TRIED BEFORE.  Over and over.  By the Feds, even.  And guess what?

IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

Because we KNOW, from top-down, that this is not the way to flourish.  The knee-jerk reaction passes eventually, and immigrants flood in. 

BY THE BYE:  where's all the outrage at people overstaying their fucking visas?  Hm?

Anyone ever look at the figures there?  How many people come here as a "student" or on a temp work visa?  And set up families?

But ohoho!  Those folks aren't Latino!  (actually, some might be from Spain, perhaps Portugal...)  They are the rich, the White, the Yurpeen.  Or the Indian.  Or the Pakistani.  Or the Taiwanese.  ...but I digress.

They're NOT profilable, so they get, shall we say?...folded into the masses.

But where is the hysteria there?  Because I tell you what--you want to talk about endangered jobs?  THOSE are the folks takin' them.  They're middle class, they're probably  more educated than you, and guess what?  They're willing to work harder and longer because they know it's harder to start again and elsewhere if they don't.

...but again, perhaps I'm talkin' to myself here.

[Jenne]

...oh by the way, I don't give two fucks about the folks staying past their visas.  I know quite a few of them.  I just brought that up as an example of Americans' stupidity about their own situations.

[Adios]

The thing is, this deportation thing, it's been TRIED BEFORE.  Over and over.  By the Feds, even.  And guess what?

IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

Because we KNOW, from top-down, that this is not the way to flourish.  The knee-jerk reaction passes eventually, and immigrants flood in. 

BY THE BYE:  where's all the outrage at people overstaying their fucking visas?  Hm?

Anyone ever look at the figures there?  How many people come here as a "student" or on a temp work visa?  And set up families?

But ohoho!  Those folks aren't Latino!  (actually, some might be from Spain, perhaps Portugal...)  They are the rich, the White, the Yurpeen.  Or the Indian.  Or the Pakistani.  Or the Taiwanese.  ...but I digress.

They're NOT profilable, so they get, shall we say?...folded into the masses.

But where is the hysteria there?  Because I tell you what--you want to talk about endangered jobs?  THOSE are the folks takin' them.  They're middle class, they're probably  more educated than you, and guess what?  They're willing to work harder and longer because they know it's harder to start again and elsewhere if they don't.

...but again, perhaps I'm talkin' to myself here.

Nope, you nailed it Jenne, it's all about Mexicans.

[Jenne]

There're several fronts that the US government could be working harder on to "seal" this immigration thing.  And it isn't.

Anyone ever ask WHY?

Because bottom line is:  we like, in the end, the way things are.  In the end, that's how it is.


(edited to fix my grammar)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The thing is, this deportation thing, it's been TRIED BEFORE.  Over and over.  By the Feds, even.  And guess what?

IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

Because we KNOW, from top-down, that this is not the way to flourish.  The knee-jerk reaction passes eventually, and immigrants flood in. 

BY THE BYE:  where's all the outrage at people overstaying their fucking visas?  Hm?

Anyone ever look at the figures there?  How many people come here as a "student" or on a temp work visa?  And set up families?

But ohoho!  Those folks aren't Latino!  (actually, some might be from Spain, perhaps Portugal...)  They are the rich, the White, the Yurpeen.  Or the Indian.  Or the Pakistani.  Or the Taiwanese.  ...but I digress.

They're NOT profilable, so they get, shall we say?...folded into the masses.

But where is the hysteria there?  Because I tell you what--you want to talk about endangered jobs?  THOSE are the folks takin' them.  They're middle class, they're probably  more educated than you, and guess what?  They're willing to work harder and longer because they know it's harder to start again and elsewhere if they don't.

...but again, perhaps I'm talkin' to myself here.

BINGO! Jenne you are on fire!

[Jenne]

 

I think being married to an immigrant, and being smackdab up against them all my life...it's affected me somehow.

*whipes the spittle from her mouth*

...and the fact I rate the TOEFL for a living...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There's several fronts that the US government could be working harder to "seal" this immigration thing.  And it isn't.

Anyone ever ask WHY?

Because bottom line is:  we like, in the end, the way things are.  In the end, that's how it is.

Of course, if we didn't have the "illegals" to blow about what would the GOP use to fill the sails of the HMS Populist Rhetoric?

You can't expect them to build a platform on actual issues, can you?

[Jenne]

There's several fronts that the US government could be working harder to "seal" this immigration thing.  And it isn't.

Anyone ever ask WHY?

Because bottom line is:  we like, in the end, the way things are.  In the end, that's how it is.

Of course, if we didn't have the "illegals" to blow about what would the GOP use to fill the sails of the HMS Populist Rhetoric?

You can't expect them to build a platform on actual issues, can you?

I took a Chicano Political History class in '93.  The professor said the exact same thing, and showed how over time, since the 19th century, that's how it's been, in CA and the rest of the US, by extrapolation.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There's several fronts that the US government could be working harder to "seal" this immigration thing.  And it isn't.

Anyone ever ask WHY?

Because bottom line is:  we like, in the end, the way things are.  In the end, that's how it is.

Of course, if we didn't have the "illegals" to blow about what would the GOP use to fill the sails of the HMS Populist Rhetoric?

You can't expect them to build a platform on actual issues, can you?

I took a Chicano Political History class in '93.  The professor said the exact same thing, and showed how over time, since the 19th century, that's how it's been, in CA and the rest of the US, by extrapolation.

There's a museum in Cincinnati which covers the "Know Nothings". It's amazing how close the arguments they used and the arguments currently being used are. Just swap "Catholic" and "Irish" with "Mexican"....