Grant Morrison @ Disinfocon

[hooplala]

Bananas aren't the key. It's happened before, with another strain of bananas and with coffee and with potatoes as well as with other crops.

Granted, but when those blights happened we didn't have mass media, which would figure into the problem.  People would not ignore the extinction of the banana.

I think it might be the key to the recognizing of the problem, as you point out.

We totally had mass media in the 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana

Yes, I read about the Gros Michel banana problem earlier today... but you can't compare the media of the 1950s with what we have today.  Its completely different. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Bananas aren't the key. It's happened before, with another strain of bananas and with coffee and with potatoes as well as with other crops.

Granted, but when those blights happened we didn't have mass media, which would figure into the problem.  People would not ignore the extinction of the banana.

I think it might be the key to the recognizing of the problem, as you point out.

We totally had mass media in the 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana

Yes, I read about the Gros Michel banana problem earlier today... but you can't compare the media of the 1950s with what we have today.  Its completely different. 

I guess fewer people read newspapers now, and people watch more TV.

[hooplala]

Bananas aren't the key. It's happened before, with another strain of bananas and with coffee and with potatoes as well as with other crops.

Granted, but when those blights happened we didn't have mass media, which would figure into the problem.  People would not ignore the extinction of the banana.

I think it might be the key to the recognizing of the problem, as you point out.

We totally had mass media in the 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana

Yes, I read about the Gros Michel banana problem earlier today... but you can't compare the media of the 1950s with what we have today.  Its completely different. 

I guess fewer people read newspapers now, and people watch more TV.

Facebook, MySpace, email, CNN, Fox News (well, probably not them actually), ticker tape newscrawls, iPhone aps, plus more to come.  If you believe some people information is supposed to double every second in a few years...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, it creates more redundancy in exposure to popular items than an actual increase in diversity of exposure to news topics.

Basically, a whole lot of repost.

[Eater of Clowns]

As far as I can tell, it creates more redundancy in exposure to popular items than an actual increase in diversity of exposure to news topics.

Basically, a whole lot of repost.

Brought to you by a whole lot of cocks.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, it creates more redundancy in exposure to popular items than an actual increase in diversity of exposure to news topics.

Basically, a whole lot of repost.

Brought to you by a whole lot of cocks.

[hooplala]

 

[Kai]

That is exactly my problem with the argument.  I want details, I want variables, and conditions... not some shorthand answer which amounts to "fuck you".  I mean, I love Kai, he is one of my favourite posters here and we had a good time when we met up in Toronto, but that "humans = irrational monkeys" post was possibly the most insulting thing I've had addressed to me in my time on this board.  Which, as a lot of you probably know, is saying a lot.

I'm sorry you felt it was insulting. I didn't intend it as an insult.

[hooplala]

That is exactly my problem with the argument.  I want details, I want variables, and conditions... not some shorthand answer which amounts to "fuck you".  I mean, I love Kai, he is one of my favourite posters here and we had a good time when we met up in Toronto, but that "humans = irrational monkeys" post was possibly the most insulting thing I've had addressed to me in my time on this board.  Which, as a lot of you probably know, is saying a lot.

I'm sorry you felt it was insulting. I didn't intend it as an insult.

Yeah, I know that... I was feeling especially fragile yesterday I guess.  You know me, a delicate flower.

[President Television]

ON THE TOPIC OF THE OP,

I don't know for sure how certain Morrison was of the future at the time of this talk of his, but I think it's entirely possible that his intent was to cast some kind of spell to make the world a better place and change the counterculture into something more effective. This was a guy who believed in magic with a k, hardcore. He'd already used a comic book as a hypersigil; where (imagining for one second that mahgjickque is legit and real, as it evidently is in Morrison's mind) is the line between public speaking and incantation? Saving the world with magic sounds exactly like something a guy with a messiah complex would try.

Obviously, it didn't work.

And on the issue of individuality:
I think what he was talking about was more people going out of their way to define themselves as individuals than existing as distinct, diverse beings. I can tell you from experience that I've had a great deal more self-respect and appreciation for differences since I stopped making an active effort to stand out. I no longer judge people by which clique or culture in particular they associate themselves with so much as by their personalities. It's actually very liberating, and I think that I'm more of an interesting, unique, and well-developed person now than I ever was when I was striving towards the goal of individuality for its own sake. It's a shallow goal. Of course, this doesn't mean you should surrender your views, opinions and tastes to satisfy the majority. In fact, I'd say it means the opposite. It means that you should apply critical thought rather than arbitrary self-definition. This is no problem at all for you, Howl.

[Doktor Howl]

Sorry, man, I'm done with this thread, after Trip's outburst.

In fact, I'm done talking politics or philosophy at all, ever.

Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

[President Television]

Sorry, man, I'm done with this thread, after Trip's outburst.

In fact, I'm done talking politics or philosophy at all, ever.

Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

Suit yourself, then. It'll be a shame, though.

[Template]

You call this good conversation???

No, I guess it wasn't.  I won't be participating in any more of these.

Thanks for the wake up call, Trip.

You're actually letting someone tell you what you do and do not like?

OK

[h-town]

There is something very THIS IS A FALSE STATEMENT about saying something like humans are irrational monkeys. It would take a rational monkey to deduce that all monkeys are irrational. It's very attractive to judge and sentence the planet to doom, but I find that behaviour to be self-serving, unproductive and way off topic of talking about Grant Morrison's disinfo drug magick lecture which I think affected his personality and writing after the fact in a positive way.

*maybe factually incorrect yet apt analogy warning*
Beavers need to chew wood to grind down their teeth (which constantly grow outwards.) Sometimes, they maybe don't take proper care or they don't notice that one tooth isn't being ground down. This tooth continues to grow outwards over a period of months or weeks (I'm not sure exactly since I haven't studied beavers or dentistry extensively) and it begins to curve towards their skull. Eventually, over an extended period, the tooth bores through skin, bone and ultimately the brain- killing the beaver in question. Over a period of weeks the beaver will be in horrendous pain while the tooth makes it's way through his or her head. Imagine spending weeks in pain when all you had to do was bash the tooth against a rock until it snapped off, or any other solution available to an animal without thumbs. A solution is obvious to a higher order species but this tooth situation in beavers is a genetic blind spot. Beavers never figure out a solution and this mistake ultimately kills them.

All animals have this same problem, and it has many different forms. In humans, our version of this dilemma takes on a more meta angle and is capable of spilling over into the lives of other species wrecking havoc in the process yet we are just as incapable of perceiving our own broken robot syndrome, or whatever you want to call it, as beavers are. The difference however is an awareness of this problem in other animals and ourselves. Unlike beavers, or irrational monkeys, we know that we are broken and we are searching for the figurative bad tooth in our minds so we may ultimately rip it out forever, or maybe just file it down for now.  This gives me hope for the future, and I don't necessarily blame ourselves since our destructive behaviour is only natural.

[LMNO]

I suppose I must point out that the phrase "Humans Are Irrational Monkeys" is a shorthand symbol for a much more subtle and complex idea, in the same manner as "You Cannot Escape the Black Iron Prison".

Due to the development of the frontal cortex, and the ability to form complex meta thoughts (thoughts about thinking), humans are capable of analyzing their behavior.  As such, they are able to make decisions regarding their actions, if they choose to do so.

A large number of humans (I may even go out on a limb and say all humans, at one time or another) have acted, will act, or even tend to act instinctively-- whether socially pre-programmed, or from more basic, limbic-system origins. 

When a person acts in a manner that shows a lack of comprehension, consideration, compassion, forethought, or rationality, you can generally say that they are not using their frontal cortex completely.  As such, you can (unchairitably) say that they are behaving like primates, i.e. "Monkeys".

Social psychologists and animal behaviorists have shown that in large groups, this tendency in unthinking primate reactionism increases.  Which is why the phrase is not, "a human is an irrational monkey", it's "HUMANS are irrational monkeys."

The point, as always, comes down to self-awareness and Think For Yourself, Schmuck!  We all have the potential to become howling, shit-throwing monkeys.  BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO WALK ON TWO LEGS.



The choice is yours.