I love the queers

[Juana]

No, it's speaking to them as a human being. I can go through many a conversation without using a pronoun and generally refer to people either by their name or they anyway. The only assumption I make with "he" or "she" is whether they have a penis or a vagina and as a whole, I could care less about that (we are breaking down gender roles aren't we? Saying "she" doesn't give me the assumption that someone spends all their time in the kitchen any more than "he" means  someone spends all their time watching football and pounding beers with their boys).  If someone's whole existance is wrapped up in whether they're accidentally referred to as a "he" or "she", well I feel sorry for them. The same as getting your identity wrapped up in any other label. I'm one of the most overly-sensitive-about-other-people's-feelings that I know, but give me a break. If I happen to inadvertently offend someone and they can politely correct me, I'll adjust accordingly, but beyond that I am going to keep dealing with people as people and do my best not to shove them into boxes.

And a label is a label, no matter what you want to call it.

I'm not offended when people misgender me (although it gets kind of wearying after a while, tbh) UNLESS I have told them I would prefer a specific pronoun (and even then, I'll cut people slack the first couple times they call me a 'she' because it's kind of unusual). Because then it's deliberate.


FTR, I haven't actually done this. A) I don't meet new people all the time, B ) it's not really a good idea around here, C) I don't want to out people before they're ready because this shit is pretty sensitive. I'm just saying I'd like to see it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. 

That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.

"dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me. However, most people recognize it as a gender-neutral term referring to another human being.

I had a person in my sociology class (one of my favorite classmates, in terms of being intelligent and articulate) who I still have no idea whether or what gender it goes by. I just call it by its name, because whatever.

[Elder Iptuous]

I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. 

That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.

"dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me. However, most people recognize it as a gender-neutral term referring to another human being.

I had a person in my sociology class (one of my favorite classmates, in terms of being intelligent and articulate) who I still have no idea whether or what gender it goes by. I just call it by its name, because whatever.

'it'

[Juana]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

This reminds me of a funny story.

Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?

I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.

The music died and pins were afraid to drop.

Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.

I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.

What. What an asshole.

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.

This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.

Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?

Gender neutrality? Uncertainty of a person's gender? Not wishing to specify?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

This reminds me of a funny story.

Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?

I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.

The music died and pins were afraid to drop.

Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.

I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.

And BAM, there you go. Opt out of the "labels are IMPORTANT!" and "THIS IS OUR STRUGGLE!" merry-go-round, and you WILL get shit on by people who have absorbed the dominant society attitude that IT'S IMPORTANT.

[Don Coyote]

I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. 

That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.

"dude" is a very useful word, as long as you don't inadvertently piss off an immature special snowflake who's looking for something to be offended about. Which has happened to me.

If I ever run into someone who gets bent out shape over "dude" I shall unleash my drill sergeant voice on them while using words like 'boy' regardless of what gender they wish to be addressed by (because I avoid using any insults based on female attributes).

Incidentally I like to avoid using masculine attributes as positive descriptors of things pertaining to my martial arts study. The pollaxe is the most knightly weapon, why would I need to emphasis the manliness of it?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

[Mangrove]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

[LMNO]

Incidentally, gay men can also be "she", but only when they're being FIERCE.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.

This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.

Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

[LMNO]

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

YOU GO, GIRL!





Wait... is "girl" okay?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.

[Juana]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

This reminds me of a funny story.

Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?

I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.

The music died and pins were afraid to drop.

Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.

I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.

And BAM, there you go. Opt out of the "labels are IMPORTANT!" and "THIS IS OUR STRUGGLE!" merry-go-round, and you WILL get shit on by people who have absorbed the dominant society attitude that IT'S IMPORTANT.

I don't really understand that whole deal. Seems kind of Pink to me, so be so wrapped up in that as to not allow other people to have their choice.

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.

This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.

Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

It's not be opting out of oppressive gender roles. It's that I happen to be gender fluid and right now, I do not remotely feel like a woman (which yes, is a construct, and "what is a woman" is a perfectly valid question that I don't have an answer to. I just know that I'm not a woman and being called one or being called feminine pronouns jangles all wrong). Talk to me in a couple years. Perhaps I'll feel like a gal then.

[Juana]

I don't really know how to explain it better than that, Nigel. It wasn't a conscious decision. "Oh, I'm not going to be a woman because I don't want to deal with an oppressive gender role" is not what happened. It was being referred to as a she or being called a girl/woman not fitting for years at a time (and then it fit for a few years; now it doesn't again. It will again in the future, quite probably).
ETA: frankly, it's jarring. It sounds weird to me. I catch on it every time I see myself called that.

[Elder Iptuous]

Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?

Gender neutrality? Uncertainty of a person's gender? Not wishing to specify?

oh, ok.  i thought it was referencing plural use.
i'm kinda fuzzy on how you'd go about using it, though.

certainly, this isn't what you intend...
"Garbo has strong opinions on pronoun use.  They is very passionate."


also, I had to reread this thread to remind myself the distinction between 'male', 'man', 'female', 'woman', 'sex', 'sexuality', 'gender', 'innersex gender', etc...