Can someone do a science to

[BadBeast]

I do agree with the bit about quantum uncertainty. Although that is just a theoretical limit, there are also several real hard practical limits to our accuracy of measuring that have to be solved before we can "copy" all the activity and configuration in a brain. And not just limits of the "we need more sensitive equipment" type either. Also, I think these errors would be not on the level of slightly different "starting points" of the same person, but probably actual real braindamage-like.

Does the brain rely on continuity of neuron firing patterns for continued existence?  i would have thought it more robust than that...  i guess i imagined that the brain had a physical structure and an electrical state such that, while the current train of thoughts and whatnot were encoded by the latter, if something were to upset that state, even clearing it out... that it would be able to work unhindered by reliance on the physical state.  i mean, all the firing patterns would start back up again properly, and all memories maintained, etc.

hm, well if you put it that way, maybe.

it could go either way, really. on the one hand I expect all sorts of real sensitive chaotic systems to be hiding in the consciousness machinery, but you got a point, in the sense that if you hit a person on the head real hard, shaking up the brain, probably equivalent to quite an error, it'll blank out, reboot, but usually has a good chance of starting up more or less as the same consciousness. and yeah, probably having lost its train of thought

could go either way, but if we get down to it, we'll test it on all sorts of animals first and find out how that works for them, I suppose.

However if someone makes a copy of me, don't destroy any of them until we've finished making out. Because I would like me very much if I met me.

yes.
i think my wife would appreciate it, too, if my clone were not destroyed.

also, would the issue of primacy be reduced or increased if you were to have even more copies made?

also, if there was two of me, i would like to have a 'sync' function, as well.  (if not a direct perceptive link)

Ooh those are also nice extra options indeed.

Not just for my copies, but also for my gf, btw.

So the first major problem after developing the technique, is obviously going to be  "The Mr Smith program, is out of control"
So the remedy on the , . .  what was that film called again?. . .  . . .  It doesn't matter,  . . . .let's all take some Pills, and do Kung-Fu!!
Awesome! 

[Requia ☣]

From my understanding there are several problems we have to work out first, and I'm not sure they will all be figured out in the next 50 years.

1) We don't have much idea of how the brain works, one of the biggest problems in cognitive philosophy at the moment, is trying to link "folk psychology" (study of the mind through how our beliefs, desires, consciousness work [which we aren't even sure about anyway]) and neuroscience. Which means that we would be forced to just create an entire replica of the brain (either in simulation or an actual physical replica), because there may be parts of a the brain that are more important than we think.

Folk psychology is the process by which a human attributes desires/thoughts/feelings etc to other people in order to predict how others will act, or explain why they acted that way, its not a study of anything.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Cliff Pickover writes a book about an "afterlife service" you'll be able to buy in the future. When you die, they release your consciousness into this digital paradise, where it will live for the rest of time.

Not gonna happen. The first digital paradise will exist for a period of time until everyone gets bored of the interface and the flash gifs... then there will be a new digital paradise which 90% of the consciousnesses will get transferred into. That one will exist until everyone starts having serious concerns about the moderators and censorship. This will spawn yet another digital paradise which about 80% of the already digitized consciousnesses will sign up for. It will be extremely popular until security issues make it a veritable incubation chamber for consciousness viruses and trojans. A new network for digital paradise will emerge, but only about half the consciousnesses will sign up for that service, because they'll be suspicious of the company that owns it.

Meanwhile, there will be a few consciousnesses at all of the older digital paradises, wondering where everyone has gone to, why no one checks out their links/PM's and digital paradise memes. These  will become like ghost towns, with only a few angry inhabitants that waylay other digital consciousnesses that took a wrong turn somewhere off the digital highway and will never be heard from again...

[Kai]

Cliff Pickover writes a book about an "afterlife service" you'll be able to buy in the future. When you die, they release your consciousness into this digital paradise, where it will live for the rest of time.

Not gonna happen. The first digital paradise will exist for a period of time until everyone gets bored of the interface and the flash gifs... then there will be a new digital paradise which 90% of the consciousnesses will get transferred into. That one will exist until everyone starts having serious concerns about the moderators and censorship. This will spawn yet another digital paradise which about 80% of the already digitized consciousnesses will sign up for. It will be extremely popular until security issues make it a veritable incubation chamber for consciousness viruses and trojans. A new network for digital paradise will emerge, but only about half the consciousnesses will sign up for that service, because they'll be suspicious of the company that owns it.

Meanwhile, there will be a few consciousnesses at all of the older digital paradises, wondering where everyone has gone to, why no one checks out their links/PM's and digital paradise memes. These  will become like ghost towns, with only a few angry inhabitants that waylay other digital consciousnesses that took a wrong turn somewhere off the digital highway and will never be heard from again...

Well, isn't SOMEONE bitter. 

[Cramulus]

that's actually part of the plot of the book.

the characters find themselves in this gigantic structure like a mall, where each kiosk offers a different type of experience. In reality, they are dead, and the electrical patterns which constitute their consciousness have been copied into this supercomputer which is sitting deep beneath the earth, powered on geothermal energy. There is no way to leave or delete yourself.

Over time, they start to realize that nothing manmade can really be paradise. And in fact the designers built it to be flawed so that the denizens wouldn't just become lazy consumer blobs of uniform bliss. For some, it definitely becomes a form of hell.


oh sweet, here it is:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PLf944cQ8rUC&dq=the+heaven+virus&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=y-jyS6z7McH6lwf--9GGDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[BadBeast]

Cliff Pickover writes a book about an "afterlife service" you'll be able to buy in the future. When you die, they release your consciousness into this digital paradise, where it will live for the rest of time.

Not gonna happen. The first digital paradise will exist for a period of time until everyone gets bored of the interface and the flash gifs... then there will be a new digital paradise which 90% of the consciousnesses will get transferred into. That one will exist until everyone starts having serious concerns about the moderators and censorship. This will spawn yet another digital paradise which about 80% of the already digitized consciousnesses will sign up for. It will be extremely popular until security issues make it a veritable incubation chamber for consciousness viruses and trojans. A new network for digital paradise will emerge, but only about half the consciousnesses will sign up for that service, because they'll be suspicious of the company that owns it.

Meanwhile, there will be a few consciousnesses at all of the older digital paradises, wondering where everyone has gone to, why no one checks out their links/PM's and digital paradise memes. These  will become like ghost towns, with only a few angry inhabitants that waylay other digital consciousnesses that took a wrong turn somewhere off the digital highway and will never be heard from again...

So this Digital eden, this new dimension of pure information, of lightspeed communication, and instant thought transference, to any other point of the virtualality we'd all live in, forever, without Death, or  the need for 12 stones of  meat based electro-chemical power plant to drag around all the time.  Of digital immortality, and  Psychic unity, based upon the sudden realisation that there would be nothing to fight over, as we all would have as much physical substance as an electromagnetic field.  And an end to the obscenity of Government,  no more morbid obesity, cheek by jowl with malnutrition, disease, or hunger.

And you just think it's going to be as big a bucket of fail, as the present system?  A little bit pessimistic, don't you think?

Where are your dreams, your hopes for mankind? Where little black cyberimps,  playing in the long, empty cyberstreets, with little white cyberimps, A whole new dimension, whose only limits are the bounds of our imagination! I'm going to stop here before I start singing some crappy old Prog rock Anthem, probably by Rush, or Yes.
I always know  I'm pushing my credibility when "Yours is no disgrace" or "Spirit of Radio" start playing in my Head-pod.  Gotta run now, bye.

[LMNO]

that's actually part of the plot of the book.

the characters find themselves in this gigantic structure like a mall, where each kiosk offers a different type of experience. In reality, they are dead, and the electrical patterns which constitute their consciousness have been copied into this supercomputer which is sitting deep beneath the earth, powered on geothermal energy. There is no way to leave or delete yourself.

Over time, they start to realize that nothing manmade can really be paradise. And in fact the designers built it to be flawed so that the denizens wouldn't just become lazy consumer blobs of uniform bliss. For some, it definitely becomes a form of hell.


oh sweet, here it is:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PLf944cQ8rUC&dq=the+heaven+virus&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=y-jyS6z7McH6lwf--9GGDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Isn't that also one of the subplots from The Matrix?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Cliff Pickover writes a book about an "afterlife service" you'll be able to buy in the future. When you die, they release your consciousness into this digital paradise, where it will live for the rest of time.

Not gonna happen. The first digital paradise will exist for a period of time until everyone gets bored of the interface and the flash gifs... then there will be a new digital paradise which 90% of the consciousnesses will get transferred into. That one will exist until everyone starts having serious concerns about the moderators and censorship. This will spawn yet another digital paradise which about 80% of the already digitized consciousnesses will sign up for. It will be extremely popular until security issues make it a veritable incubation chamber for consciousness viruses and trojans. A new network for digital paradise will emerge, but only about half the consciousnesses will sign up for that service, because they'll be suspicious of the company that owns it.

Meanwhile, there will be a few consciousnesses at all of the older digital paradises, wondering where everyone has gone to, why no one checks out their links/PM's and digital paradise memes. These  will become like ghost towns, with only a few angry inhabitants that waylay other digital consciousnesses that took a wrong turn somewhere off the digital highway and will never be heard from again...

So this Digital eden, this new dimension of pure information, of lightspeed communication, and instant thought transference, to any other point of the virtualality we'd all live in, forever, without Death, or  the need for 12 stones of  meat based electro-chemical power plant to drag around all the time.  Of digital immortality, and  Psychic unity, based upon the sudden realisation that there would be nothing to fight over, as we all would have as much physical substance as an electromagnetic field.  And an end to the obscenity of Government,  no more morbid obesity, cheek by jowl with malnutrition, disease, or hunger.

And you just think it's going to be as big a bucket of fail, as the present system?  A little bit pessimistic, don't you think?

Where are your dreams, your hopes for mankind? Where little black cyberimps,  playing in the long, empty cyberstreets, with little white cyberimps, A whole new dimension, whose only limits are the bounds of our imagination! I'm going to stop here before I start singing some crappy old Prog rock Anthem, probably by Rush, or Yes.
I always know  I'm pushing my credibility when "Yours is no disgrace" or "Spirit of Radio" start playing in my Head-pod.  Gotta run now, bye.

Humans are humans... from the first analog cave to the last digital grave.

[Kai]

Cliff Pickover writes a book about an "afterlife service" you'll be able to buy in the future. When you die, they release your consciousness into this digital paradise, where it will live for the rest of time.

Not gonna happen. The first digital paradise will exist for a period of time until everyone gets bored of the interface and the flash gifs... then there will be a new digital paradise which 90% of the consciousnesses will get transferred into. That one will exist until everyone starts having serious concerns about the moderators and censorship. This will spawn yet another digital paradise which about 80% of the already digitized consciousnesses will sign up for. It will be extremely popular until security issues make it a veritable incubation chamber for consciousness viruses and trojans. A new network for digital paradise will emerge, but only about half the consciousnesses will sign up for that service, because they'll be suspicious of the company that owns it.

Meanwhile, there will be a few consciousnesses at all of the older digital paradises, wondering where everyone has gone to, why no one checks out their links/PM's and digital paradise memes. These  will become like ghost towns, with only a few angry inhabitants that waylay other digital consciousnesses that took a wrong turn somewhere off the digital highway and will never be heard from again...

So this Digital eden, this new dimension of pure information, of lightspeed communication, and instant thought transference, to any other point of the virtualality we'd all live in, forever, without Death, or  the need for 12 stones of  meat based electro-chemical power plant to drag around all the time.  Of digital immortality, and  Psychic unity, based upon the sudden realisation that there would be nothing to fight over, as we all would have as much physical substance as an electromagnetic field.  And an end to the obscenity of Government,  no more morbid obesity, cheek by jowl with malnutrition, disease, or hunger.

And you just think it's going to be as big a bucket of fail, as the present system?  A little bit pessimistic, don't you think?

Where are your dreams, your hopes for mankind? Where little black cyberimps,  playing in the long, empty cyberstreets, with little white cyberimps, A whole new dimension, whose only limits are the bounds of our imagination! I'm going to stop here before I start singing some crappy old Prog rock Anthem, probably by Rush, or Yes.
I always know  I'm pushing my credibility when "Yours is no disgrace" or "Spirit of Radio" start playing in my Head-pod.  Gotta run now, bye.

Because the same things that give us great potential, our creativity, adaptability, emotions and passions, are the same things that inevitably cause disaster.

As rat said, you can't take the human out of humanity.

[Telarus]

I'd like to add something. This conception of the Brain as the sole arbiter of consciousness is misplaced reductionist absurdism. We have 2 (TWO!) fully developed nervous systems (each with their own chemistry-flow and 'blood-brain barrier'). Trying to envision duplicating an individual consciousness by recreating the brain (even to perfection) is like trying to figure out the 'correct' place to write the words "happy', 'sad', 'love', and 'hate' on this picture to show where those emotions come from:

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'd like to add something. This conception of the Brain as the sole arbiter of consciousness is misplaced reductionist absurdism. We have 2 (TWO!) fully developed nervous systems (each with their own chemistry-flow and 'blood-brain barrier'). Trying to envision duplicating an individual consciousness by recreating the brain (even to perfection) is like trying to figure out the 'correct' place to write the words "happy', 'sad', 'love', and 'hate' on this picture to show where those emotions come from:

TROOF!

[BadBeast]

I'd like to add something. This conception of the Brain as the sole arbiter of consciousness is misplaced reductionist absurdism. We have 2 (TWO!) fully developed nervous systems (each with their own chemistry-flow and 'blood-brain barrier'). Trying to envision duplicating an individual consciousness by recreating the brain (even to perfection) is like trying to figure out the 'correct' place to write the words "happy', 'sad', 'love', and 'hate' on this picture to show where those emotions come from:

TROOF!

Reminds me of an article in an old Bizzarre Mag, about people who had died for some reason or another, and when the Pathologist was doing the post mortem, and went check to check out the brain weight, he's sawn open the head, only to find no brain there at all. Just a thin, membrane around the inside of the skull. There was a nub of grey cells around the top of the spinal chord, about the size of a walnut, but no brain. The man who had died, was about 55, and the cause of death was something like a leaky duodenal ulcer or something. The man was a Store Manager for a Supermarket chain, with a normal life, family, and no behavioural problems, or mental deficiency of any kind. The Pathologist then did some research, and found that it's not as uncommon as you'd think. All the other cases that he dug up, had only been discovered by accident, during post mortem. And none of them had shown any sign of deficiency. Then he began researching as to how such a thing is possible, and found that a lot more of what we think of as brain activity, actually occurs in the spinal column, and in the nervous system itself. It's only in the last 2000 years, apparently, that the general concensus of the head, being the seat of consciousness has been
widely accepted. The ancient Greeks thought the heart was where the "self" lived, and the Egyptians thought it was in the stomach. There have been a lot of people who have had organ transplants, reporting that they have inherited memories along with the donated organ. One of these cases, a girl who recieved the liver from someone who had been murdered, was actually so disturbed by the memories, she made enquiries about the donor, discovered her organ came from a murder victim, and was able to go to the Police who were investigating the case, and pick the murderers mugshot out from their books, leading to a conviction, so it just goes to show that as far as consciousness goes, we really know very little about how it works, or where it lives or even what it does most of the time. It's one of the most difficult biological functions, to quantify with any degree of certainty at all.

[Kai]

I'd like to add something. This conception of the Brain as the sole arbiter of consciousness is misplaced reductionist absurdism. We have 2 (TWO!) fully developed nervous systems (each with their own chemistry-flow and 'blood-brain barrier'). Trying to envision duplicating an individual consciousness by recreating the brain (even to perfection) is like trying to figure out the 'correct' place to write the words "happy', 'sad', 'love', and 'hate' on this picture to show where those emotions come from:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Heart.jpg

I'm assuming you're talking about the visceral/autonomic nervous system.

I agree with you though. Our minds are not simply in our heads, they extend to all portions of our bodies, and even a short distance from when it comes to tactile reception. We are our whole neural network, not just the stuff above the clavicle.

[Doktor Howl]

All I know is that if I can't have a Robot Nixon body, then why the hell do we pay these so called "scientists"?

[Telarus]

I'd like to add something. This conception of the Brain as the sole arbiter of consciousness is misplaced reductionist absurdism. We have 2 (TWO!) fully developed nervous systems (each with their own chemistry-flow and 'blood-brain barrier'). Trying to envision duplicating an individual consciousness by recreating the brain (even to perfection) is like trying to figure out the 'correct' place to write the words "happy', 'sad', 'love', and 'hate' on this picture to show where those emotions come from:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Heart.jpg

I'm assuming you're talking about the visceral/autonomic nervous system.

I agree with you though. Our minds are not simply in our heads, they extend to all portions of our bodies, and even a short distance from when it comes to tactile reception. We are our whole neural network, not just the stuff above the clavicle.

More specifically the Enteric nervous system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system), which is capable of autonomous function, has it's own 'blood-brain barrier', develops separately from the Central Nervous System during gestation, and then is linked back to it via the Vagus Nerve later in development. It is classically considered a part of the Autonomic Nervous System, but I think it's differentiated enough to consider a primary system by itself.

I wish I had paid more attention in biology class in H/S, but then again, they never mentioned the cool shit like this.