The Race Test

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/18/doll.study.parents/index.html?hpt=Sbin

First, I have no trouble with the concept that racism is alive and well in the US.

Second, this seems like a horrible test to judge racism in the US.

There is a series of cartoon kids, ranging from light skinned to dark skinned. Then the test givers ask questions like "Who is the smart child?" "Who is the bad child?" or "Point to the mean child." They are happily touting these amazing results because kids often picked the white kid as good and the dark kid as bad.

However, these are five year olds... and the questions are all trick questions. At least it seems that way to me. I don't know of any five year olds that would give the correct answer: "There isn't enough information to determine good or bad or smart or dumb... what the hell kind of test are you running here, ya schmuck?!"

Since the kids likely don't realize that its a trick, they're gonna give a wrong answer, no matter what answer they try to give. IF the only available data is skin color, and the child believes that they must give an answer (and that the answer is available based on 'differences' in the pictures)... why is it surprising that they identified positively with the far left, light colored picture rather than the far right dark colored picture?

I am confused by CNN SCIENCE!!!!

[Doktor Howl]

How is it a trick question?  The idea is to ask a child who is too young to dissemble what he thinks, as a barometer for how those children are being raised.

[LMNO]

Did anyone notice that there are no actual results given, save for a single child?

[Edit: wait,  I found it.  Brb.]

[Doktor Howl]

Did anyone notice that there are no actual results given, save for a single child?

Nope.  This isn't my kind of science¹, so I didn't read it.  I've heard the story behind it, though.  This isn't a new idea.



¹  No giant robots or killer squid.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

How is it a trick question?  The idea is to ask a child who is too young to dissemble what he thinks, as a barometer for how those children are being raised.

It's a trick question because the only right answer is "I don't know" or "There isn't enough information..."

A five year old, in my experience is unlikely to be able to grok that a grown up is asking a question (or asking them to do something) that doesn't have a right answer. So then, are they pointing to the 'dark picture' because they think "Kids with dark skin are bad!" Or is it because they are being asked a question and are trying to answer based on the only available data (skin color and position in the line)? I did  a little experiment of my own over the weekend and all three five year olds I talked to answered unanswerable questions... mostly based on what was in front of them. I think that the test could simply be confusing these kids... If the adult says "Show me the Bad kid" the child will assume that one of the kids must be bad and select one based on the available data (in this case color and position in the line). Out of the three kids I poked at, they generally thought that good stuff was on the left side and bad stuff at "the end of the line". On top of that, if you watch the colors that kids choose to color with (at least in my limited experience) brighter colors tend to be used more than dark colors.

I know what they're aiming for, but I wonder if its indeed a barometer or if its just confusing the kids.

[Doktor Howl]

How is it a trick question?  The idea is to ask a child who is too young to dissemble what he thinks, as a barometer for how those children are being raised.

It's a trick question because the only right answer is "I don't know" or "There isn't enough information..."

A five year old, in my experience is unlikely to be able to grok that a grown up is asking a question (or asking them to do something) that doesn't have a right answer. So then, are they pointing to the 'dark picture' because they think "Kids with dark skin are bad!" Or is it because they are being asked a question and are trying to answer based on the only available data (skin color and position in the line)? I did  a little experiment of my own over the weekend and all three five year olds I talked to answered unanswerable questions... mostly based on what was in front of them. I think that the test could simply be confusing these kids... If the adult says "Show me the Bad kid" the child will assume that one of the kids must be bad and select one based on the available data (in this case color and position in the line). Out of the three kids I poked at, they generally thought that good stuff was on the left side and bad stuff at "the end of the line". On top of that, if you watch the colors that kids choose to color with (at least in my limited experience) brighter colors tend to be used more than dark colors.

I know what they're aiming for, but I wonder if its indeed a barometer or if its just confusing the kids.

Leaving the thread now.

Dok,
Gets unreasonably upset when he sees the work "grok" used with a straight face.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

How is it a trick question?  The idea is to ask a child who is too young to dissemble what he thinks, as a barometer for how those children are being raised.

It's a trick question because the only right answer is "I don't know" or "There isn't enough information..."

A five year old, in my experience is unlikely to be able to grok that a grown up is asking a question (or asking them to do something) that doesn't have a right answer. So then, are they pointing to the 'dark picture' because they think "Kids with dark skin are bad!" Or is it because they are being asked a question and are trying to answer based on the only available data (skin color and position in the line)? I did  a little experiment of my own over the weekend and all three five year olds I talked to answered unanswerable questions... mostly based on what was in front of them. I think that the test could simply be confusing these kids... If the adult says "Show me the Bad kid" the child will assume that one of the kids must be bad and select one based on the available data (in this case color and position in the line). Out of the three kids I poked at, they generally thought that good stuff was on the left side and bad stuff at "the end of the line". On top of that, if you watch the colors that kids choose to color with (at least in my limited experience) brighter colors tend to be used more than dark colors.

I know what they're aiming for, but I wonder if its indeed a barometer or if its just confusing the kids.

Leaving the thread now.

Dok,
Gets unreasonably upset when he sees the work "grok" used with a straight face.

I never have a straight face.

Also, feel free to replace it with "fully grasp the significance of  an adult asking a question that doesn't have a right answer" if you like.

[Kai]

You could easily randomize that aspect by swapping the pictures around, so that sometimes the white kid is on the left and sometimes the right, and if you keep track of which is which it will show up in the results.

The questions are deliberately ambiguous because the experiment is to find out how they THINK, not what is correct. However, attributing this to racism in upbringing rather than some sort of kin selection is another point of bias. All of these things are elements which could be controlled, if the experiment is thought out and set up well enough. Wording of the questions, "which child do you think is smarter?", etc, would help a lot.

It's not the question ("Do young children react positively/negatively based on skin color?") that's bad, it's the experimental setup.

[Requia ☣]

The test kindof lacks anything approaching different degrees.  Even if you accept its detecting racism, it can't tell the difference between a knee jerk reaction and a future member of stormfront.


Rat: Of course the kids can't understand the test.  Honest answers require keeping the test subject in the dark.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It's not the question ("Do young children react positively/negatively based on skin color?") that's bad, it's the experimental setup.

I agree 100% Kai!

The test kindof lacks anything approaching different degrees.  Even if you accept its detecting racism, it can't tell the difference between a knee jerk reaction and a future member of stormfront.


Rat: Of course the kids can't understand the test.  Honest answers require keeping the test subject in the dark.

Sure... except that it means these kids seem very likely to believe that there MUST be an answer and if there  MUST be an answer it MUST be based on the available data...

Tester asks: "Which child is bad?"

Child thinks: "The one that is my color or the one that is not my color..."

I don't think that means the kid would necessarily think "dark colored kids are bad" as much as they might be thinking "I am not bad, so it must be the one not like me".

I think racism is a serious problem. In the area I grew up racism is alive and well... but I think this test might be a load of bullocks. At least, based on the currently available crap from CNN.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speaking of pervasive racism, I am fascinated by the fact that more than one respondent in this thread seems to be assuming that all of the children in the study were white. I am also fascinated by people who choose to express opinions on studies they obviously haven't actually bothered to read.

I suggest that before you argue about the methods used in the study, you actually download and read it. The link is in the article.

[Kai]

Speaking of pervasive racism, I am fascinated by the fact that more than one respondent in this thread seems to be assuming that all of the children in the study were white. I am also fascinated by people who choose to express opinions on studies they obviously haven't actually bothered to read.

I suggest that before you argue about the methods used in the study, you actually download and read it. The link is in the article.

I've read the methods. No where in there is a statement about removing left/right bias to the scale, and the questions are poorly worded.

The conclusion assuming racism rather than kin selection is premature as well.

And no where did I assume all the children were white.


Most of all, I hate how CNN has sensationalized this, just like every other study out there on any subject. Media always has to make science into a spectacle.

[Jasper]

Why does all the shitty science make news?  That's what I want to know.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speaking of pervasive racism, I am fascinated by the fact that more than one respondent in this thread seems to be assuming that all of the children in the study were white. I am also fascinated by people who choose to express opinions on studies they obviously haven't actually bothered to read.

I suggest that before you argue about the methods used in the study, you actually download and read it. The link is in the article.

I've read the methods. No where in there is a statement about removing left/right bias to the scale, and the questions are poorly worded.

The conclusion assuming racism rather than kin selection is premature as well.

And no where did I assume all the children were white.


Most of all, I hate how CNN has sensationalized this, just like every other study out there on any subject. Media always has to make science into a spectacle.

Concluding that the children chose the lighter figures as "good" and the darker figures as "bad" because of kin selection presupposes that the children were white. If you read the study than surely you saw that their selection of study subjects was designed to equalize familiarity preference across demographics, right?

[bugmenоt]

Think of the Milgram experiments which have shown that many people would injure random strangers if they are told so by an authority. In that race test the participants don't even have to go that far, they just have to make statements. And given that they accept the authority of scientists, they most likely will assume that one of the child on that pictures must be the bad one (like Ratatosk said). And it doesn't take much that a child partially adopts racist opinions from adults. Children learn very fast and I think one of the basic operations of learning is telling differences and similiarities. Also, a quite basic thought of humans is "things which are similiar to me are better" (as mentionned in the article).
This study may give valuable information about racism in parenting, but only if it tries to eliminate such biases as good as possible.

Maybe a statement can be racist if given by an adult, but you have to look for other judgement if a 5 year old gives it?