Mapping the terrain.

[LMNO]

"""Faulty premise: Many Discordians (including myself) tend to follow the idea that the map is NOT the territory.

If you wish to follow your initial premise, please support your assertion that the ideas in our ego/personality perfectly match external reality."""

Maybe irrelevant in the sense that I am trying to use these words? Or I'm just looking at the subject from a different angle.

"""No.  By your definitions, the terrain would be part of your ego and personality."""

Yep... Isn't it? :P

No, actually... The ego and personality are part of the terrain, not the other way around.  Your filters (BIP, reality grid, limited perceptions, et al) are a set which are inside a larger Reality.  You only see a small part of a bigger whole.

[Cramulus]

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So what can we take from this thread?

IMO, it's that 5th circuit is something experienced, but discussing 5th circuit from within 5th circuit ends up sounding like gibberish.

Which is why no one thinks stoned people are smart except other stoned people.

Even without pot specifically, I think this is a plausible idea. I mean, through any of the 'bliss' options people have the same problem... when someone is totally blissed out, they can't communicate well cause they sound like a flower child. Outside of the bliss state though, the experiences within the bliss state can be useful.

[LMNO]

"Oceanic Bliss" does not align well with "Rational use of Symbols"

[Cramulus]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

[Kai]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

[Doktor Howl]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

[Kai]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

That death is inevitable for everyone?

[Doktor Howl]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

That death is inevitable for everyone?

Assumes facts not in evidence.  I am still alive, for example.

Dok,
Working on a new exit.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet?

[Kai]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet?

Except death is a lack of experience.

Kai,

is being cheeky because you are.

[Doktor Howl]

You are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing:  I have not doubted in you for a
single moment.  I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death.  It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment.  It has not
come to you by means of teachings!  And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings!  You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!

The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil.  But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain:  they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands.  This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings.  This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.

Siddhartha, page 18

Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.

And he's dead now.  What does that tell you?

That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet?

Yeah.   He should tell us about it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Except death is a lack of experience.

Kai,

is being cheeky because you are.

But, dying is an experience....

(Double Plus Cheeky)

Yeah.   He should tell us about it.

Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.

[Doktor Howl]

Except death is a lack of experience.

Kai,

is being cheeky because you are.

But, dying is an experience....

(Double Plus Cheeky)

Yeah.   He should tell us about it.

Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.

This is why all religions are a crock of shit except the Church of the Subgenius, because "Bob" won't STOP coming back from the dead to chat, no matter how many times we kill him.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Except death is a lack of experience.

Kai,

is being cheeky because you are.

But, dying is an experience....

(Double Plus Cheeky)

Yeah.   He should tell us about it.

Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.

This is why all religions are a crock of shit except the Church of the Subgenius, because "Bob" won't STOP coming back from the dead to chat, no matter how many times we kill him.