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On the socialization of children

Started by Unkl Dad, June 09, 2010, 08:54:57 PM

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Cramulus

let me try this one:

I haven't talked to my science advisor in years, but I can still hear his analytic style in the back of my head.


Or:

Carl Sagan's body is a pile of ash, but his personality is still here, still effecting the universe.

LMNO

Ok, I see where you're going, but:

If Sagan was alive and one of his ideas was proven wrong, then he would be able to change his conciousness to accomodate this new information.

Now that Sagan is dead, if one of his ideas is proven wrong, his conciousness cannot change to accomodate this new information.

You seem to be referring to what might be called a "residue of consciousness", an artifact that is left behind.  It is in itself not an emergent system, but rather a product of an emergent system.  If I write a song, my conciousness doesn't reside in the song, it is a document of my conciousness: Like a photograph of a butterfly is not an actual butterfly.

AFK

To harken back to the pattern discussion:

Is it possible, that our human limitations filter out the information that would allow us to observe the post-death existence of personality or consciousness (if it exists)? 

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2010, 04:40:34 PM
So, you're saying that a system that emerges from a multiplicity of simple interactions can then become independent of those interactions? 

I'm claiming that computer software frequently does. I'm suggesting that consciousness might. Where does science stand on the issue of will? Does it exist? Is it an emergent meta-property of consciousness? Or a side effect? Or something completely separate? Does science know just what this faculty is capable of? Can it measure it using electrodes glued to a rat's head? At the point of organic death is the will (or a limited subset thereof) capable of somehow imprinting the main pattern in some other state, as a desperate, last-ditch attempt to save itself? Once again - I don't know. Kai does - apparently he has 300-odd years of scientific evidence.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Lies

Hahahaha fools, all of you! :lulz: :lulz:

*I* Know what happens when you die, and I ain't tellin none of you cus I'm taking it to the grave!

But since I'm in a generous mood and I *like* most of you guys, I'll give you a clue: Birth and Death, there is no difference, just a matter of time.
:fuckmittens:
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

P3nT4gR4m


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cramulus

there are parts of Me which exist independently of my nervous system, they are contained within every system that I've affected.

even though Sagan's material form has passed from this world, we can imagine to some degree what sagan would say if presented with some new data. So if you ask me, there is still some life in that pattern. We've absorbed a little bit of sagan's soul, immortalized him by incorporating him into ourselves.


While I agree that the consciousness which emerges from cells and tissues will go away, (just as sagan's unique point of view has gone away) there are clearly parts of our lives (shrapnel) that live on independent of that material existence.

I realize that this answer seems to be pointing in a different direction than the original question -- which seemed to be asking, "What is the experience of death like?", or perhaps "Is there an afterlife?"

So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I just want to put my two cents on the table here.. I don't see my life as being neatly contained by my physical form. You might as well try to figure out what happens to a swamp after it dies.



Adios

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.


P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Hawk on June 14, 2010, 05:21:20 PM
WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.



THIS!

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Lies

Quote from: Hawk on June 14, 2010, 05:21:20 PM
WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.



It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

I am unsure if I should laugh or cry over this argument....

No one knows what the fuck happens post-death... no theories are better or worse because there is no data. We could go party in the Void with Eris, cease to exist, go to heaven, hell, rejoin the Kia, get reincarnated, go become gods of our very own planets or find ourselves in some terrible Sci-Fi movie.

The data to support any of these theories = 0

Therefore any position held on which theory is Right, Most Right, Most Likely or Probable is Bullshit.

But, we need fertilizer, so that's OK.  :lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Lies

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 05:37:06 PM
I am unsure if I should laugh or cry over this argument....

No one knows what the fuck happens post-death... no theories are better or worse because there is no data. We could go party in the Void with Eris, cease to exist, go to heaven, hell, rejoin the Kia, get reincarnated, go become gods of our very own planets or find ourselves in some terrible Sci-Fi movie.

The data to support any of these theories = 0

Therefore any position held on which theory is Right, Most Right, Most Likely or Probable is Bullshit.

But, we need fertilizer, so that's OK.  :lulz:

Actually, it's *all* of the above. Congrats Rat, you managed to guess correctly, you clever Rat you.
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Hawk on June 14, 2010, 05:21:20 PM
WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.



I could be wrong but I think that's what everyone is arguing, but from different perspectives.

But it is good to present kids with possibility of surviving physical death, since that's a big scary thing waiting for everyone that you can't escape. On the bright side we're all presented with the knowledge that we're going to kick off decades in advance and have the opportunity to prepare for it psychologically. But when you first come to that realization it's scary as hell though.

My mom told me about when I first became aware of death. Ironically, it was because of religion, the very thing that provides a psychological comfort. I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic kindergarten (and elementary school), and for some reason my teacher decided to teach us about the true meaning of Easter. Apparently, I was so horrified that not only did people including God-IncarnateTM die, but that other people willfully caused it in brutal fashion upon occasion, that I had to be sent home for the day. I don't remember this, but I do remember what came out of it- I planned that after I died, I would wait until God was asleep and sneak back to earth and be alive again, taking all of my loved ones with me.

My 5-year old's logic that God must sleep too (let alone my assumption that an omniscient being wouldn't already know my plan) still amuses me 23 years later.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 05:37:06 PM
I am unsure if I should laugh or cry over this argument....

No one knows what the fuck happens post-death... no theories are better or worse because there is no data. We could go party in the Void with Eris, cease to exist, go to heaven, hell, rejoin the Kia, get reincarnated, go become gods of our very own planets or find ourselves in some terrible Sci-Fi movie.

The data to support any of these theories = 0

Therefore any position held on which theory is Right, Most Right, Most Likely or Probable is Bullshit.

But, we need fertilizer, so that's OK.  :lulz:

Only reason I'm arguing is because I want the ones with "3 million years of scientific evidence" to concede that exact point :argh!:

Unfortunately we're dealing with ordained ministers of evangelical science so maybe I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark