ATTN, Dok: How the cookie crumbles.

[P3nT4gR4m]

OFUK 

Though, think of all the food types which will survive in a city for a few weeks by itself - soda/crisps/pre-packaged junk food, limited water and no fresh produce.  By the time they reach the towns they'll be constipated as fuck, moving slowly and groaning for fibre... "GRAAAAAINS!"

Fuck yeah! Now yer talking. Chainsaws at the ready 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ask yourselves a very serious question.  Is it truly money which will decide? 

How many people have.....

Lived without electricity? 
Know how to farm, not potted plants, a farm? 
Ever milked a cow or a goat? 
Ever wrung a chicken's neck? 
Any comprehension on how to cook with a wood stove? 
How to preserve food for the winter?

I honestly believe it will still hold to be survival of the fittest, I just don't think the fittest will be the richest or even the smartest.  I think the survivor's will be the ones who can actually do just that.... Survive.

I know I'm good.  I own a farm and I'm not afraid to use it    I just have to move to the backwoods of Virginia, just outside Tennessee. 

I can do some of these things. I can also do some things not mentioned on the list. Likewise there are people who can do/teach me the things I can't while I help them out in return. It's not last man standing. We have communities out here in the sticks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick manufacturers ...

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Ask yourselves a very serious question.  Is it truly money which will decide? 

How many people have.....

Lived without electricity? 
Know how to farm, not potted plants, a farm? 
Ever milked a cow or a goat? 
Ever wrung a chicken's neck? 
Any comprehension on how to cook with a wood stove? 
How to preserve food for the winter?

I honestly believe it will still hold to be survival of the fittest, I just don't think the fittest will be the richest or even the smartest.  I think the survivor's will be the ones who can actually do just that.... Survive.

I know I'm good.  I own a farm and I'm not afraid to use it    I just have to move to the backwoods of Virginia, just outside Tennessee. 

I can do some of these things. I can also do some things not mentioned on the list. Likewise there are people who can do/teach me the things I can't while I help them out in return. It's not last man standing. We have communities out here in the sticks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick manufacturers ...

We do to some degree, but nothing like it used to be.  Our communities are now the burbs.  There are a few places that still encourage that "community".  You will see it in the northeast, (Maine, Vermont, maybe New Hampshire) some in the northwest (Oregon, Washington, maybe northern California) and there might be a few scattered in the south and midwest, but a very few, otherwise, even the smallest of towns and villages seem to have been swallowed by the progress of our own insanity.  Smalltown America, well it died a long time ago, it just took people years to realize it and even longer to stop and ask WHY?

It's different in Europe.  There are still small communities all over. 

[Elder Iptuous]

Khara,
i think it's power that will decide.  money is only part of it.
remember, there has throughout history been those with the skills necessary to produce the food and goods that we need, and they have generally worked for those that have the skills necessary to oppress and control them, no?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ask yourselves a very serious question.  Is it truly money which will decide? 

How many people have.....

Lived without electricity? 
Know how to farm, not potted plants, a farm? 
Ever milked a cow or a goat? 
Ever wrung a chicken's neck? 
Any comprehension on how to cook with a wood stove? 
How to preserve food for the winter?

I honestly believe it will still hold to be survival of the fittest, I just don't think the fittest will be the richest or even the smartest.  I think the survivor's will be the ones who can actually do just that.... Survive.

I know I'm good.  I own a farm and I'm not afraid to use it    I just have to move to the backwoods of Virginia, just outside Tennessee. 

I can do some of these things. I can also do some things not mentioned on the list. Likewise there are people who can do/teach me the things I can't while I help them out in return. It's not last man standing. We have communities out here in the sticks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick manufacturers ...

We do to some degree, but nothing like it used to be.  Our communities are now the burbs.  There are a few places that still encourage that "community".  You will see it in the northeast, (Maine, Vermont, maybe New Hampshire) some in the northwest (Oregon, Washington, maybe northern California) and there might be a few scattered in the south and midwest, but a very few, otherwise, even the smallest of towns and villages seem to have been swallowed by the progress of our own insanity.  Smalltown America, well it died a long time ago, it just took people years to realize it and even longer to stop and ask WHY?

It's different in Europe.  There are still small communities all over. 

Ours isn't quite like it was in the good old days but it still has that small-town feel to it. I'm pretty sure a zombie invasion would be more than enough to put everybody back on first name terms again.

[Cramulus]

I am leaning towards the view that overpopulation is a myth originally designed as an attack on the breeder proles spawning litter after litter of unwashed malcontents.

I doubt there are many forces out there with a sufficient grip on the power lines to enact something as drastic as widespread depopulation. Though I don't doubt that more than a few people have designs.


I hope that if somebody thought they were decreasing the population for "humane" reasons, they would try to do it in the way which causes the least suffering
which I speculate would be some kind of weapon targeted at population centers
---but that would be quite a blow to the businesses I imagine they'd want to protect, wouldn't it?

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Khara,
i think it's power that will decide.  money is only part of it.
remember, there has throughout history been those with the skills necessary to produce the food and goods that we need, and they have generally worked for those that have the skills necessary to oppress and control them, no?

If history repeats in this, then what, we are back to slavery or serfdom?  No, I think things will be different.  We have developed into such a selfish species, I don't see us going back.  Yes, we may work for others, but oppress and control?  I don't know about that.  Also, land ownership is not determined by a ruling force now.  Anyone can be a landowner.  That will make a huge difference.

[Doktor Howl]

Ask yourselves a very serious question.  Is it truly money which will decide? 

How many people have.....

Lived without electricity? 
Know how to farm, not potted plants, a farm? 
Ever milked a cow or a goat? 
Ever wrung a chicken's neck? 
Any comprehension on how to cook with a wood stove? 
How to preserve food for the winter?

I honestly believe it will still hold to be survival of the fittest, I just don't think the fittest will be the richest or even the smartest.  I think the survivor's will be the ones who can actually do just that.... Survive.

I know I'm good.  I own a farm and I'm not afraid to use it    I just have to move to the backwoods of Virginia, just outside Tennessee. 

I can do some of these things. I can also do some things not mentioned on the list. Likewise there are people who can do/teach me the things I can't while I help them out in return. It's not last man standing. We have communities out here in the sticks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick manufacturers ...

And here come 300,000 hungry city dwellers.

It isn't the lack of resources that kill, it's the panic and chaos.  The breakdown of production and distribution.

[Doktor Howl]

I am leaning towards the view that overpopulation is a myth originally designed as an attack on the breeder proles spawning litter after litter of unwashed malcontents.

I'd like to believe that, but there's all these spreading deserts that disagree.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Ask yourselves a very serious question.  Is it truly money which will decide? 

How many people have.....

Lived without electricity? 
Know how to farm, not potted plants, a farm? 
Ever milked a cow or a goat? 
Ever wrung a chicken's neck? 
Any comprehension on how to cook with a wood stove? 
How to preserve food for the winter?

I honestly believe it will still hold to be survival of the fittest, I just don't think the fittest will be the richest or even the smartest.  I think the survivor's will be the ones who can actually do just that.... Survive.

I know I'm good.  I own a farm and I'm not afraid to use it    I just have to move to the backwoods of Virginia, just outside Tennessee. 

I can do some of these things. I can also do some things not mentioned on the list. Likewise there are people who can do/teach me the things I can't while I help them out in return. It's not last man standing. We have communities out here in the sticks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick manufacturers ...

And here come 300,000 hungry city dwellers.

It isn't the lack of resources that kill, it's the panic and chaos.  The breakdown of production and distribution.

And panic occurs at the drop of a hat.
Hurricane? Shit, better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. So many of them that there won't be enough for everyone else.
Blizzard? Shit better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. The electricity might go out and all the food in the fridge will spoil. It won't occur to me to just put it all on the porch.
Contaminated water? Shit, I better buy a fuck ton of water. I never drink it, really. But there isn't any water and that means I need it. More than I need. So much that there isn't enough to go around for anyone else. Not like I could drink beer or milk or gatorade.

People love panic. Panic is funny.

[Doktor Howl]

And panic occurs at the drop of a hat.
Hurricane? Shit, better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. So many of them that there won't be enough for everyone else.
Blizzard? Shit better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. The electricity might go out and all the food in the fridge will spoil. It won't occur to me to just put it all on the porch.
Contaminated water? Shit, I better buy a fuck ton of water. I never drink it, really. But there isn't any water and that means I need it. More than I need. So much that there isn't enough to go around for anyone else. Not like I could drink beer or milk or gatorade.

People love panic. Panic is funny.

Panic on that scale is just good business.  Why do you think every news outlet spends all day scaring the shit out of people with "Special Reports"?

The panic I'm talking about is the panic that happens when the lights go out and never come back on.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And panic occurs at the drop of a hat.
Hurricane? Shit, better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. So many of them that there won't be enough for everyone else.
Blizzard? Shit better go buy some canned goods. Lots of them. The electricity might go out and all the food in the fridge will spoil. It won't occur to me to just put it all on the porch.
Contaminated water? Shit, I better buy a fuck ton of water. I never drink it, really. But there isn't any water and that means I need it. More than I need. So much that there isn't enough to go around for anyone else. Not like I could drink beer or milk or gatorade.

People love panic. Panic is funny.

Panic on that scale is just good business.  Why do you think every news outlet spends all day scaring the shit out of people with "Special Reports"?

The panic I'm talking about is the panic that happens when the lights go out and never come back on.

Yeah, I probably didn't put it across well enough. I was trying to illustrate how easily panic occurs over small things to show what it would be like on a large scale. Especially where the city dweller will always take more than they need or will use, which prevents a more even distribution of food. Their freak out and last minute stocking lead to deprivation in their fellow citizens, which makes the problem worse quicker.

[Triple Zero]

Trip,
I understand that the distribution of intelligence and foresight is independent of wherewithall.  That doesn't seem to lead to the conclusion that the rich are incapable, though.
how do you arrive at the figure of 2 or 3 elite people with the notion of surviving apocalyptic conditions?  That seems to be a pdooma on the short end of the stick, imo.  

It was just a very handwavy general guess If you got some points to argue a different number, your estimate will no doubt be more accurate. Also would be interested to hear it

also, i would think that those that have been able to generate and maintain wealth over an extended period of time would give more consideration to each others' insights than average joe would give to another average joe's, who can be easily dismissed.

And I think that's over estimating things again. Cause wealthy people aren't more smart than non-wealthy people.

And non-wealthy people also have had relative wealth over an extended period of time (by which I mean living our current first world utopia-ish), and they aren't generally preparing for shit.

further, i would think that one in a position of power and wealth would be unlikely to simply 'hole up' in the event of a great crumbling simply because erecting power structures around themselves is the way they got to their lofty positions in the first place, and it is second nature to them.

Not if they are born in those positions. And if you're speaking of generation-spanning wealth, that is the case.

When i see things like the continuity of government plans that have some degree of external scrutiny and are on the public dime, and then think that there are people with great personal resources that aren't beholding to any external forces, i wonder what they might have in the works.  But then, i'm paranoid....

Well, there's probably a few of them, but not many. It'd be interesting to see what they have up their sleeves though, indeed.

Something occurred to me last night as I was walking the dog through a bunch of farmland near my home. We're pretty rural where I live. Basically it's one small town in the middle of a bunch of farms. Essentially it's the kind of place that seems like it's capable of supporting the people living there. Obviously this isn't proven or anything, just how it immediately strikes me - it produces enough food to feed everyone. When you compare this to a city which is exponentially more population-dense and produces fuck all in the way of food you'll be able to see where I'm going, regardless of whether my self sufficiency guestimate is on the money or not.

When I was in Edinburgh last weekend, Regret and I noticed that next to the Waverly central station, there seemed to be a bunch of greenhouses.

What's up with those? Maybe they weren't greenhouses. But if they were they would not be able to sustain the entire city ever? And if they got under attack they'd be broke within hours. And if the shit hits the fan, people would raid them and they would very quickly be entirely useless and possibly even be more of a liability to have them than to just not have them.

What's up with those things? Do you happen to know?

[Triple Zero]

It's different in Europe.  There are still small communities all over. 

not getting my hopes up