The Oath of the Abyss

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...

Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man

Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Church of Satan too?

[Telarus]

and the Raelians, and the Raj Neesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29


....and   ...and  ...and


Did you hear they're making an Atlas Shrugged movie? 

[Richter]

Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...

Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man

Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Church of Satan too?

From the LaVey I've read; Yes.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...

Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man

Sad and TROOF!

[Nephew Twiddleton]

and the Raelians, and the Raj Neesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29


....and   ...and  ...and


Did you hear they're making an Atlas Shrugged movie? 

Raelians are hilarious!

And, yes, I've heard tell of the movie

[P3nT4gR4m]

The reason why I never started on a Thelemic path is because - the way it was explained to me at least - you couldn't understand anything of the higher truths without totally absorbing the lower truths through ritual and practice.  In other words, you had to fully enter that reality tunnel before you could start to evaluate anything of value.

So with that in mind, wouldn't someone taking The Oath of the Abyss already be steeped in certain ways of thinking which would influence their reaction, whether fully conscious or not?  Isn't that the total opposite of TFY,S?

Look at it another way - you can't not be in one reality tunnel or another. Being in a reality tunnel is how you experience manifestation. Given that that's the case you are either in a reality tunnel of your own making, one which has been imposed upon you or (as is most often the case) a mixture of the two. Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right? You want to achieve that goal then entering that system is as good a way as any. If you do it with purpose then fooling yourself is a means to an end, nothing more. It's fooling yourself when you don't know that's what you're doing that's the opposite of TFYS 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The reason why I never started on a Thelemic path is because - the way it was explained to me at least - you couldn't understand anything of the higher truths without totally absorbing the lower truths through ritual and practice.  In other words, you had to fully enter that reality tunnel before you could start to evaluate anything of value.

So with that in mind, wouldn't someone taking The Oath of the Abyss already be steeped in certain ways of thinking which would influence their reaction, whether fully conscious or not?  Isn't that the total opposite of TFY,S?

Look at it another way - you can't not be in one reality tunnel or another. Being in a reality tunnel is how you experience manifestation. Given that that's the case you are either in a reality tunnel of your own making, one which has been imposed upon you or (as is most often the case) a mixture of the two. Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right? You want to achieve that goal then entering that system is as good a way as any. If you do it with purpose then fooling yourself is a means to an end, nothing more. It's fooling yourself when you don't know that's what you're doing that's the opposite of TFYS 

This is the correct motorcycle.

Accepting someone else's reality tunnel for awhile can provide great insights on some of the reasons why that person thinks the way they think... as long as you don't get stuck there

[Cramulus]

good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.

I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.

[P3nT4gR4m]

good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.

I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.

My advice - stick with it. I have a friend (a real good friend) who went exactly the same way. Once you get over the initial horrorshock it becomes assfuckingly hilarious real quick

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.

I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.

I have a friend that is going through a divorce, feels like his life is destroyed (was WAAAAY too devoted to his wife) and... he turned to the Masons, cause his dad and brothers etc all said it was the Right Choice.
 

[Richter]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

[Richter]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking.  To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step. 

One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment.  I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking.  To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step. 

One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment.  I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
 

Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.

That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.

[Richter]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking.  To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step. 

One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment.  I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
 

Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.

That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.

Let me elaborate a bit on that, as far as how I handle ideas and experiments like our "Oath of the Abyss"
(Good breakdown of the basics, but that wasn't where I was going with my post.)

It's your brain.  If you want to think a different way to see where it takes you, jsut do it.  You are asolutely right this will take practice and discipline.  Considering it an "Oath" that you have to take does give it a LOT more mental weight than just, "Ok, I'm doing this now until I get bored, forget it, etc.", and could make it easier to stick with, or focus on.  Is this mental weighting necessary though?  It's an agreement with yourself, and no cult, group, or otherwise is going to come along and smack you with a stick if you forget to think of everything in context of said oath for a minute.  If the idea (at least IMHO), is self development, then no one else can expect it of you or force you into it.  Crowley isn't going to rise from his grave to waggle a finger at you. 

"Try it, see how it works for you, and back off if you need a breather, if you forget or lapse out of it, pick up again when you remember", is my usual approach.  My head, my rules, I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".