The future doesn't want you

[The Wizard]

E-prime seems like a decent idea, but I don't think limiting the ways people can express themselves is really the answer. While e-prime might make so that you have speak more specifically and objectively, that isn't really my goal. The goal is to alter human thinking so that it more open to new ideas and more likely to think long term.

Maybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts.

I might use this if I cannot get the conlang introduced as an educational language. If I can't get it to people when their in their formative years, then my best bet is to introduce it however I can and hope families raise their kids into it.

[Doktor Howl]

E Prime is just another way of not looking at The Truth, by making everything a "maybe truth".

It's an impediment, not an aid.

[Cramulus]

And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.

fixed that for ya, boss  

E-prime seems like a decent idea, but I don't think limiting the ways people can express themselves is really the answer. While e-prime might make so that you have speak more specifically and objectively, that isn't really my goal. The goal is to alter human thinking so that it more open to new ideas and more likely to think long term.

you might dig Korzybski's notion of "General Semantics", the field which e-prime grew from.

Korzybski described the central goal of General Semantics as developing in its practitioners what he called a "consciousness of abstracting," or an awareness of the map/territory distinction and of how information gets deleted/distorted in the linguistic and other representations we use. Korzybski considered sporadic and intellectual understanding of these concepts insufficient, rather that humans achieve full sanity only when the consciousness of abstracting becomes constant and a matter of reflex.

Many General Semantics practitioners view the associated techniques as a kind of self-defense kit against manipulative semantic distortions routinely promulgated by advertising, politics, and religion, as well as those found in self-deception.

Viewed philosophically, some consider General Semantics as a form of applied conceptualism that emphasizes the degree to which human experience gets filtered and mediated by contingent features of human sensory organs, the human nervous system, and human linguistic constructions.

The most important premise of General Semantics has been succinctly expressed as "The map is not the territory; the word is not the thing defined".[1] While Aristotle wrote that a true definition gives the essence of the thing defined (in Greek to ti ên einai, literally "the what it was to be"), General Semantics denies the possibility of describing such an essence.[2] In this, General Semantics purports to represent an evolution in human evaluative orientation much as non-Euclidean geometry represents an evolution in mathematical representation of spatial relationships.

[Doktor Howl]

And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.

fixed that for ya, boss  

It is, though.  I can demonstrate why.

[The Wizard]

you might dig Korzybski's notion of "General Semantics", the field which e-prime grew from.

I just might. Going into my research pile.

[Cramulus]

And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.

fixed that for ya, boss  

It is, though.  I can demonstrate why.

I'll bite. But I want to say - in the last week alone, e-prime has helped me cut through numerous confusions at work, stay relatively objective while my GF and I were screaming at each other, and avoid strangling people I was arguing with about religion. I've found it extremely useful in those types of situations, but not 100% of the time. Honestly, I think it's actually improved the quality of my life, or at the very least, my communications.

I do object to the idea that I'm perpetuating a language designed to oppress people, and would be somehow more free by constantly speaking in absolutist language which glosses over nuance or subjectivity. And if I didn't know you, I might be offended. But that's the purpose of R-Prime, the linguistic equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun, no? 

[Doktor Howl]

And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.

fixed that for ya, boss  

It is, though.  I can demonstrate why.

I'll bite. But I want to say - in the last week alone, e-prime has helped me cut through numerous confusions at work, stay relatively objective while my GF and I were screaming at each other, and avoid strangling people I was arguing with about religion. I've found it extremely useful in those types of situations, but not 100% of the time. Honestly, I think it's actually improved the quality of my life, or at the very least, my communications.

I do object to the idea that I'm perpetuating a language designed to oppress people, and would be somehow more free by constantly speaking in absolutist language which glosses over nuance or subjectivity. And if I didn't know you, I might be offended. But that's the purpose of R-Prime, the linguistic equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun, no? 

Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve.  Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.

He is now, of course, free to continue taking his stress out on you.  Or so it may subjectively seem to you.

And sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth.  It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.

In fact, the very worst thing that can happen to an e-prime using individual is to be stuck in a room with me for a month or three, on a project.  I have an unfortunate tendency to steam roller people like that at work, difficult as it may be to believe.

Incidentally, did you get your package yet? 

[Cramulus]

Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve.  Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.

e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.

If you let yourself get shit on, you're a pussy. What language you use isn't going to change that.

And sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth.  It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.

sure. SOMETIMES you need a shotgun. SOMETIMES you need to be specific. Neither are in of themselves proper ways to conduct yourself 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that e-prime is useless.

Incidentally, did you get your package yet? 

No, not yet! 

[Doktor Howl]

Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve.  Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.

e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.

If you let yourself get shit on, you're a pussy. What language you use isn't going to change that.

And sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth.  It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.

sure. SOMETIMES you need a shotgun. SOMETIMES you need to be specific. Neither are in of themselves proper ways to conduct yourself 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that e-prime is useless.

Incidentally, did you get your package yet? 

No, not yet! 

I had to send it by freight rates, or take an ass raping.  You should see it in the next 3-4 days at the latest.

And I maintain that having a shotgun sticking out of your mouth at all times is preferable. 

1.  E Prime is an invitation for people like Filthy Assistant and Mike the Engineer to fuck with your game, and

2.  Keeps the fucking pterodactyls away.  Will E Prime do that?

[Doktor Howl]

e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.

I'm not sure there's a distinction, there, come to think of it.  You can only use information that you have received and processed.  The method by which you process it determines the end data you have to work with.

[Doktor Howl]

A Parable:  Once, 5 blind men encountered an elephant.  The first touched it's trunk, and said "It is like a snake".  The second touched it's leg and said "It's like a tree".  The 3rd touched it's ears and said "It's like a manta ray".  The 4th touched its side and said "It's like a mountain".  The 5th touched its dick, grabbed a machete, killed the other 4 blind men, and signed the elephant to a porno deal for big bucks.

[Cramulus]

2.  Keeps the fucking pterodactyls away.  Will E Prime do that?

Yes, the pterodactyls prefer ---- AAAAH GOD HELP THEY SEEM TO BE EATING ME -- MY INTESTINES APPEAR TO BE FALLING OUT!!

e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.

I'm not sure there's a distinction, there, come to think of it.  You can only use information that you have received and processed.  The method by which you process it determines the end data you have to work with.

Hm, I don't follow.

So the boss says "Chris never makes deadlines, let's not hire him to freelance, let's do it in-house." (which is code for "You do it, it'll save us money.")

and the hidden story is that Chris is usually pretty good, but hasn't made any deadlines recently because we've been overburdening him and changing his task the day before its due.

Thinking in e-prime draws my attention to why the boss said that (his subjective, time-sensitive perceptions). E-prime has no bearing on whether or not I'm going to object to doing the work myself.

Neither "Chris always makes deadlines" or "Chris never makes deadlines" are true statements. If we want to evaluate how useful he's going to be in the future, we have to understand his work habits in more specific terms.

[Doktor Howl]

So the boss says "Chris never makes deadlines, let's not hire him to freelance, let's do it in-house." (which is code for "You do it, it'll save us money.")

R-Prime reponse:  "And why is it that he never makes deadlines?"  <--- Polite yet confrontational tone.

You can't give the bastards an inch.  I can almost always talk my boss out of bad decisions by forcing him to explain himself in real terms.

[Cramulus]

so we agree that in this context, precise language is more useful?

[Doktor Howl]

so we agree that in this context, precise language is more useful?

Precise language is always more useful.  Muddying up terms and "softening" responses with needless subjectivity or assumptions of subjectivity, IMO, gets in the way of precision.

Sure, R Prime can mean that you are occasionally completely wrong (it's your job as a biped to examine things as best as you can to avoid this)...but with E Prime, you're never completely right.