Author Topic: Liberation is scary  (Read 5294 times)

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 37164
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 06:31:32 pm »
Considering Cain more or less demonstrated that Hassan i Sabbah never even said that in the first place, one might think they could make up a better non-translation.

Misattributed quotes are still quotes.

Or words to that effect.   :lulz:
Molon Lube

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62824
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 06:32:40 pm »
Well played, sir.  Two points to the Doktor.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 06:34:13 pm »
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...

It is?

That's the most horrible thing I've heard all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

I find the term is often misused out of context.

Nothing is True (in the context) indicates that no one thing is True for ALL. No two cells in the Black Iron Prison are identical. No two views from the prison window are identical.
Everything is Permissible to YOURSELF. IE Non Servim, Think For Yourself, Schmuck, Remodel your BIP.

I think in the translation to English, it loses a lot of its meaning.



So doing evil is okay, so long as you do it by yourself?

It's not saying that its OK... thats the translation problem.

It means that there is nothing STOPPING you from being evil. You can choose to be evil if you want to. The part that is being focused on is that the CHOICE is yours.

Considering Cain more or less demonstrated that Hassan i Sabbah never even said that in the first place, one might think they could make up a better non-translation.

Heh, yeah, well you can thank bad 19th century 'historians' for that ;-)

The problem I see is that in a broader context the term is useful... but its so often quoted in a poor context to make it nearly useless. Crowley "Do as Thou Will" is very similar both in its intent and in its misunderstanding.

"Do as Thou Will" doesn't mean "Do what the fuck you want, no one gives a shit". The student first has to understand 'Will'... which based on what Crowley wrote and taught it means your "true purpose". In the system where the term fits, we all have our True Purpose, our existence in line with the movement of the Universe... and the 'Law' of Thelema is to find that True Purpose and live it, which is very different from "Do whatever you want".  (Note that True Purpose is not fate, but more about 'YOUR' purpose, rather than what others expect your purpose to be)

I personally think both terms have been superseded by the more modern interpretation "Think for Yourself, Schmuck!"
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 37164
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 09:47:13 pm »
Wait.

19th century historians?  Which ones?
Molon Lube

Fujikoma

  • Potato God
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1010
  • Pheremone Octopi of Spiked Intrusion
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 10:17:56 pm »
I don't give a damn WHAT it means, I just think it sounds cool.

*flute solo*

EDIT: Actually, thanks for the explanation, I really appreciate it. Makes sense that way. I always kind of figured it meant the material world is deceptive in nature and that the limitations placed on us by authority figures and the law are illusory... "Think for yourself, schmuk." strikes me as more efficient and to the point, though, doesn't sound as cool.

EDIT EDIT: Or perhaps it means "Your head is full of shit, fucktard, you can never know anything of value, so go out there and do whatever strikes you as important, because it's all going to end the same way anyway."...?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:40:23 pm by Fujikoma »

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 10:36:06 pm »
Wait.

19th century historians?  Which ones?

Same ones that gave us 'Chivalry' ;-)

Also, I had no idea until recently that Bushido was pretty much bullshit as well... not only Bullshit but bullshit from the early 20th century and it was swallowed so well that the Emperor of Japan used it to push troops and kamikaze fighters less than 50 years after the term had been mangled into the "Fall on my sword" idea.

Hell, until I really started studying history I had no idea how free most "serfs" were during the Middle Ages. I mean, in some ways they had more freedom than the average Joe today. Obviously they also had some pretty crazy restrictions that we don't have today, but it wasn't the wallowing in filth, can't feed my family, can't read/think/do anything sort of stereotype that we think of when we hear Serf.


History, a combination of made up bullshit and troof... and its hard to tell which is which.  :lulz:


ETA: Though for Hassan specifically I think we can go back a bit further to the 12th Century and Marco Polo. I don't recall if he was responsible for the first Western repeat of the Everything is Permissible quote or not. There was a novel in the 1930's which terribly abused the quote (book was called Alamut). However, it predates the book... but I don't recall exactly when it got recorded as TRUE. I know William Burroughs also used the quote as did Nietzsche.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:42:39 pm by Ratatosk »
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 37164
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 11:05:22 pm »
Have a reputable link to any of this?  Because, as far as I know, RAW made it all up?
Molon Lube

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2010, 12:31:14 am »
Have a reputable link to any of this?  Because, as far as I know, RAW made it all up?


Marco Polo wrote about Hassan I Sabbah and the Assassins and Alamut and the whole 'Garden' story in his book "The Travels of Marco Polo"
http://books.google.com/books?id=zYvVAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Travels+of+Marco+Polo&source=bl&ots=qc7ubpAhpP&sig=6ZLs-GC2FfgsIOVWpjKlUp7efGM&hl=en&ei=7SopTMyZFoL48Ab2s8ChAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCg#v=snippet&q=paradise&f=false

Page 200

Quote
XVIII On the Castle of the Old Man of tho Mountain and how he trained and employed his Assassins You shall learn all about the Old Man of the Mountain as I Marco heard related ...

How much of it is fact versus Marco Polo's stories? I don't know.

The quote doesn't appear in Polo's story. It does however appear in both Nietche:

Quote
“Nothing is true, all is permitted”: so said I to myself. Into the coldest water did I plunge with head and heart. Ah, how oft did I stand there naked on that account, like a red crab

The actual saying as tied to this though is only identified with William Burroughs and later cribbed by Uncle Bob.

http://tribes.tribe.net/burroughsinterzone/thread/9f20fe71-2f19-409c-954c-5a29343daaad

Sorry I didn't have time earlier for as much detail. Also, I had thought I read a reference to the earlier term in Arabic which had been translated into German in the 1800's... but I can't find it now.



 
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 37164
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 12:54:19 am »
Okay, I was just interested in whether or not it was a recent invention of RAW, et al.

Molon Lube

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 64400
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 01:12:07 am »
Since Alamut had been levelled by the Mongols some decades before the time Marco Polo arrived (in fact, if he had tried that travel before the Great Khan had conquered most of Central Asia, the Middle East, China, the Caucasian Mountains and Russia, he'd have likely been hanged, waylaid by bandits or imprisoned several times over on such a trip) any information about the Assassins coming from Polo are to be treated with about as much credibilty as the writings of mainstream Muslim scholars on the group, ie not a lot.

Also, if you understand Nizari theology, then it is pretty obvious that the "nothing is forbidden" translation is the accurate one.  The Nizari cult believed that when the end times were near, all rules which Muslims were bound to live by would be abolished.  This is the Qiyamah doctrine, which was initiated by Sheikh Hasan 'ala Dhikrihi Al-Salam, and the likely origin of various stories about the Assassins and use of drugs, wine, women and beautiful gardens.

The thing is though, Hasan ibn al-Sabbah was himself a highly pious and austere Muslim, albeit of a heretical school, and would not have agreed with Hasan's interpretation of the end times.  At least, not without Allah himself telling him it was alright.  Therefore the attribution quote itself is almost certainly an invention, likely of 19th century British officers who were present in the Kingdom of Persia and carried out many excavations and explorations as part of the Great Game with Russia.  Overwhelming British paranoia about both Russian intentions in the region and the perfidy of central Asian despots may have lead to appropriation of the later day Qiyamah doctrine in order to tar all Muslims with this exotic, yet untrustworthy label.

Reginald Ret

  • 'Miserable Atrocianthrope'
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4168
  • Interweb Gloryhole QC Inspector #23
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 10:07:44 am »
Nothing is true, everything is permitted... I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, Disco... I had a bad experience with the church, but it likely wasn't as bad as yours, I was merely rejected for being psychotic... This is my second post, btw, so I really carry no weight in this community and can, in no way, represent them... But I am an independent practitioner of All Kinds Of Shit, and while I like company, company doesn't much like me... I don't know.

Changing your belief system is hard at first, but being able to shift paradigms is essential to understanding reality... It's like a muscle you never used before, you're going to have to work to build it up, but, once you do, it'll be easy.
please to define psychotic....
Here you go, his definition.
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25622.msg891218#msg891218

I'm just trying to keep the clouds from coming.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Fujikoma

  • Potato God
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1010
  • Pheremone Octopi of Spiked Intrusion
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 10:13:10 am »
Dude, it's hard to tell if you're trying to save me from a fate worse than death, or consign me to one, but I get the impression you are helping me, so, really, thanks... If it turns out to be different... Well, I'll kill you in your sleep... Still, you do your research, don't you?

Anyway, I've been lectured, I know I did wrong, I'm sorry *prays to the rain god*... Still, thanks a ton, it definitely looks like you're being nice from where I'm sitting.

MODIFY: Social structure is meaningless to me, but I deleted my rant out of consideration to the rest of you.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 11:17:33 am by Fujikoma »

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 02:40:50 pm »
Since Alamut had been levelled by the Mongols some decades before the time Marco Polo arrived (in fact, if he had tried that travel before the Great Khan had conquered most of Central Asia, the Middle East, China, the Caucasian Mountains and Russia, he'd have likely been hanged, waylaid by bandits or imprisoned several times over on such a trip) any information about the Assassins coming from Polo are to be treated with about as much credibilty as the writings of mainstream Muslim scholars on the group, ie not a lot.

Also, if you understand Nizari theology, then it is pretty obvious that the "nothing is forbidden" translation is the accurate one.  The Nizari cult believed that when the end times were near, all rules which Muslims were bound to live by would be abolished.  This is the Qiyamah doctrine, which was initiated by Sheikh Hasan 'ala Dhikrihi Al-Salam, and the likely origin of various stories about the Assassins and use of drugs, wine, women and beautiful gardens.

The thing is though, Hasan ibn al-Sabbah was himself a highly pious and austere Muslim, albeit of a heretical school, and would not have agreed with Hasan's interpretation of the end times.  At least, not without Allah himself telling him it was alright.  Therefore the attribution quote itself is almost certainly an invention, likely of 19th century British officers who were present in the Kingdom of Persia and carried out many excavations and explorations as part of the Great Game with Russia.  Overwhelming British paranoia about both Russian intentions in the region and the perfidy of central Asian despots may have lead to appropriation of the later day Qiyamah doctrine in order to tar all Muslims with this exotic, yet untrustworthy label.

I was aware that Sabbah was austere and that there was no way a 'Garden' would fit in the physical space of Alamut ;-)

I thought I had read somewhere that Nietzsche had used an old Arabian saying... but now I can't find that reference anywhere and apparently there's some idea that Nietzche had just made it up and Burroughs later came up with the same term via his cut-up method... added it to his poem and then RAW cribbed from that.

 :lulz:

So first, I'm a Cosmic Schmuck and was totally incorrect in my earlier comments on the meaning of the term as historical fubar.  If Cain's theory is right, then the first use of it was particularly nihilistic. In Nietzsche use it  appears slightly more pragmatic, in Burroughs poem it's just Bill's cut-up bullshit and the usage as I stated above, tying it with TFY,S! and Do As Thou Will is obviously RAW's usage from Illuminatus, Masks and his other works.

Thats what happens when I type from sources in memory rather than checking them first! I Fail.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 64400
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 04:25:48 pm »
With Nietzsche, it also probably relates back to his "perspectivism", which is even more radical than the name or the phraseology he uses suggests (quantum physicists would probably get a kick out of it).

And yeah, the Burroughs cut-up/RAW connection makes a lot of sense.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Liberation is scary
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2010, 05:43:27 pm »
With Nietzsche, it also probably relates back to his "perspectivism", which is even more radical than the name or the phraseology he uses suggests (quantum physicists would probably get a kick out of it).

And yeah, the Burroughs cut-up/RAW connection makes a lot of sense.

Well, Bob always said 'Reality Is What You Can Get Away With'... the bastard.  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson