TOUCHDOWN JESUS INCINERATED BY GOD

[Zyzyx]

Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.

[Golden Applesauce]

Badbeast - I can't help wondering what the congregations/denominations who do practice speaking in tongues and whatever those Spirit-induced fits are called would take away from this story if they read it.  I don't think you'd come across as sympathetic to them (if only because you use the word 'fucking') but I am curious as to what they would think of Graham.  Honest Christian who ran into a demon that was just to stubborn for him?  Well-intentioned man whose bungling technique drove a soul even further away from the Lord than it already was?

Also curious as to what moral they would find in the story.

"You win some, you lose some?"
"There's just no helping some people?"
"People who aren't used to glossolalia might react poorly to it?"
"Avoid triggering the fight-or-flight panic response during evangelism?"
"Wear a helmet or get more than one guy to restrain someone when performing exorcisms?"

Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.

I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism.  My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help.  A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.

Thanks for the link GA!  I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.

The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you.  LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast.  Why?  Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.

Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.

Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.

Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything?  Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?

My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals.  It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever.  At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith.  They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith.  The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it.  The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic.  The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.

[BadBeast]

Badbeast - I can't help wondering what the congregations/denominations who do practice speaking in tongues and whatever those Spirit-induced fits are called would take away from this story if they read it.  I don't think you'd come across as sympathetic to them (if only because you use the word 'fucking') but I am curious as to what they would think of Graham.  Honest Christian who ran into a demon that was just to stubborn for him?  Well-intentioned man whose bungling technique drove a soul even further away from the Lord than it already was?

Also curious as to what moral they would find in the story.

"You win some, you lose some?"
"There's just no helping some people?"
"People who aren't used to glossolalia might react poorly to it?"
"Avoid triggering the fight-or-flight panic response during evangelism?"
"Wear a helmet or get more than one guy to restrain someone when performing exorcisms?"

Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.

I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism.  My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help.  A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.

Thanks for the link GA!  I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.

The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you.  LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast.  Why?  Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.

Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.

Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.

Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything?  Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?

My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals.  It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever.  At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith.  They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith.  The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it.  The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic.  The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.

If I came across as unsympathetic to their particular brand of Christianity, it's probably because I am. Especially that particular lot. A few months after, they got their hands on a friend of mine, and he spent two years in  and out of psychiatric units by the time they were done with him.
All parlour tricks, and headgames. I would be interested (vaguely) to hear their account of the night in question though. For many years it coloured my opinion of all Christians, and it was at least ten years before I could take any of them seriously at all. I'm well over that now though, and a couple of my best friends are Christians. I've talked to them about it, and they seem just as dismayed as I was. (Well, not quite, but nearly) And that 'speaking in tongues' is the freakiest bullshit, if you're not expecting it.

[Juana]

*prepares to plug book one more time* Sorry, probably last time, but it's directly relevant to the discussion and has some interesting stuff that dissects organizations like this.

Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.

I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism.  My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help.  A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.

Discussed in the very first section of the book. You pretty much hit the nail on the head, but he talks about it in more detail and expands on it. It's usually people who were neglected by their family in one way or another - which is why their prime recruits are blue collar or the rich who were ignored or maltreated as kids (I'd give you some names for that last one, but my book is being held hostage by a friend).

Thanks for the link GA!  I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.

The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you.  LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast.  Why?  Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.

Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.

Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.

Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything?  Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?

My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals.  It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever.  At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith.  They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith.  The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it.  The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic.  The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.

Of course. But these churches encourage their members to do that and further - tell them to cut off connection with those who aren't members of the church if there's no chance they might be "saved" and this extends to family and friends. It's vicious.

[BadBeast]

The book sounds more and more like something I'm going to have to read. The tactical way in which they operate, with specific demographic target groups is as inherant in their system, as Lao Tse's 'Art of War' would be in a Military model.
The depth of planning  (in my story) that was involved, didn't sink in properly for maybe three years. I mean, the fact that they probably never had regular 'Thursday Night meetings' at all.

The alternative, (that Graham rang his 'Recruitment Officer' up, saying  "We've got a live one here, green light, all systems go")   consideration, didn't occur to me for so long, because the logistical lengths such a plan would entail, just didn't seem
A/ Worth the effort,  or
B/ A sane road to go down, ending in paranoia, and psychic sepsis.

I know that's what happened, because the friend I mentioned earlier, told me what happened to him was basicly the same story as mine, only it was a regular  'Tuesday night meeting'. He was also given Homebrewed Beer to drink, which suggests to me that a hypnotic type drug was added.
That, plus a little stage hypnotism, and I think they've obviously got a fairly successful basis for indoctrination.
The stumper, for me, is that even now, I don't think Graham had any ill intention towards me, he really was just acting as he thought a good 'Soldier of Christ' was supposed to.

And this is the main danger in a system or a Religion, that demands
blind faith. It stops doubt in it's tracks. And doubt, in my opinion, is absolutely essential for any kind of Spiritual growth.
Which is probably why 'Blind Faith' is such a cornerstone of all Abrahamic Religions. After all, that way lies Madness,  Heresy,  the Rack, and, ultimately  the Inquisition. 


"Lord, spare me from thy followers, who lacking the will to think for themselves, seek to still all thought in others. They condemn all question, as Sin, then castigate themselves in order that they might brand all thinkers, as Sinners, Goblin worshippers, and all round spags. This I ask, despite knowing you are only a hastily botched together tangle of Jungian Archetypes and tales to scare children, &  therefore exist only at the whim of my capricious imagination. Amen,"

(Prayer of Priapicus Fukmuk)

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

sorry for the pedantry, but Sun Tzu wrote Art Of War.

[BadBeast]

sorry for the pedantry, but Sun Tzu wrote Art Of War.

That's OK Pix, what's a damp Tuesday morning good for, if not a little pedantry?

[NWC]

[Fujikoma]

LOL @ Johnny 5

Bad Beast, that's quite the experience. Personally, I can put up with a bunch of stuff, even go to church and talk about religion with people without mentioning my own lack of belief, and them never asking, and even if they do, I'd smile and encourage them to tell me about something else. I don't have a problem with religion.

But attempted exorcisms... Man, I don't know why, but that shit makes me ANGRY. I scared my grandmother half to death one day because she tried to use prayer to get the demons to leave me alone (I had a cup filled with a milk shake in my hand, which I crushed with my fist, making a terrible mess). They just don't appreciate how much work is involved in getting the demon in there in the first place, I guess. :P

That being said, I find it funny how every "act of God" that fits in with a particular Christian world view is praised and accepted, yet when God says something like "Thou shalt not make tacky sculptures of my son or thou shalt roast marshmallows by its light." they're like "There's no spiritual significance to that.". Keep in mind, I'm not targeting all Christians here, there are just some of them that go too far.

And yeah, before you mentioned it, Bad Beast, I found myself thinking they probably spiked your drink... It's highly possible.

[President Television]

BadBeast's story reminds me of my current landlady. I live with my parents(I'm 17, what of it?), and we've been renting the same apartment for a couple years now. In '08, she invited us to the Easter service at her church. I didn't particularly want to go, but my stepfather told me that these religious types were good for business and we had to present the image of a happy family. So I went along.

We get to the church, and it's one of these new churches with symbolic architecture. Triangles everywhere. This particular church was designed to look like a fish. We get inside, and this place is crowded. This is in the midst of my six-month depression trip, and it's all I can do to keep a straight face, let alone smile. Eventually, we make it to the chamber where the service is to take place. The room is huge. We sit next to the landlady, of course, who from here on shall be known as Helen. We have to wait a while for the room to fill up, but is it ever intense when the service gets going.

First, we're treated to a little video. It could be a trailer for a movie. Maybe a 300 ripoff. Amongst incredibly gritty images of Jesus on the cross, we're treated to a little explanation of how Jesus is the son of God, how he was crucified, how he was resurrected and how because of that anyone can get to heaven if they have faith. It would be hilarious if the energy in the room wasn't so intense. After this, a four-piece country band plays on the stage. They're actually quite talented. They're also very, very Christian.

Next, there's the first part of a pageant. You can tell Jesus apart by the brainlessly mellow tone of his actor's voice. He teaches a lesson about something. We get a sermon after this. Most of the rest of the service goes like this. It alternates between pageant and sermon, pageant and sermon, with the occasional morality tale thrown in. It's painfully boring, but not particularly offensive. Then we get near the end. And here come the testimonials.

There's a girl who lives in a town nearby. Let's call her Mary. Mary used to really get around. Mary used to drink. Mary used to do crystal meth with her fuck buddies. One day, Mary gets kicked out of her hovel. It was the cheapest place in town. She has nowhere else to go. She looks at her situation and knows that if it wasn't for the booze and the meth, she would've been able to pay that rent. She searches her soul, and she finds it withered in a pit. Maybe it wasn't just the booze and the meth. Maybe she's fucked up every decision in her life. Maybe she's been totally wrong about everything. Maybe she's a wreck. A husk. A freak. And it hurts. She collapses in despair. And when she looks up, she finds Jesus.
Mary gets a standing ovation.

There's a tiny grey bird of a woman. We'll call her Jane. Jane's husband was a military man. He was a good man and he spent his life serving overseas. He was a peacekeeper. One day, he's injured and gets sent home. This is fine with Jane. They don't spend enough time together anyway. They live together for quite a few years. The kids grow up and move out of the house. Soon, Jane and her husband are all alone together. And they've gotten old. It crept up on them. They've gotten old, and old people get check-ups. One day, they see the doctor. He looks uncomfortable, and they both know something isn't right before he asks about the husband's life insurance. Naturally, Jane is devastated. Her husband is bedridden with cancer, and it only gets worse. Jane breaks down. She might never see her husband again. Jane loses all hope. And she turns to the church. She gets involved. And her husband's health improves a bit. When he finally does die, Jane's faith carries her through it, and she sobs in the spotlight as she tells us all that she knows it was all a part of God's plan.
Over the applause, a voice in the front row cries "Praise the Lord!"

As she claps, Helen has tears of ecstasy in her eyes.

"Step right up!" says the pastor. "Who wants to be saved?"